Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

An Aeon of Strife map for Warcraft 3
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 Post subject: Tier List and Discussion
PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 3:11 am 
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This is my opinion on the current standing for heroes. By all means discuss and debate, if I'm convinced I'll change it.

Reborn's Tierlist - 1.14c8

Very Good

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  • Time Cleric
  • Arcane Mistress
  • Arboreal Crusader
  • Divine Wizard
  • Incarnation
  • Mystic Swashbuckler
  • Infiltrator
  • Ascendant
  • Defiler

Good

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  • Rune Knight
  • Elder Treant
  • Scarab
  • Sorrow Liege
  • Nephilim
  • Blazing Priest
  • Putrid Eidolon
  • Colossus
  • Glacial Tyrant
  • Tactician
  • Aeromancess
  • Arcane Archer
  • Icespinner
  • Emberwraith
  • High Oracle

Decent

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  • Acid Reaver
  • Forlorn Martyr
  • Dread Shaman
  • Soul Binder
  • Master of the Hunt
  • Behemoth

Terrible

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  • Grim Hag

Not Placed (Not enough play)

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  • Crimson Squall
  • Blackguard


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PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 7:33 am 
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AM is probably Very Good with the cloud to stop heroes, ulti to stop pushes, banish to increase own attack damage and team spells. And a useful siege spell.

Treant is Decent?

Rue the Sorrow Liege is Very Good with lots of hp, strong nuke, speed aura, healing fort, fear.

Soul binder definitly deserves at least a rank of Good, just ignore that hero nuke skill and take everything else.

Tac has massive damage potential with over 1000 range, auras, invisibility and promoted sorcs. -> very good.

Ember may be decent as support, I dont play him a lot though.

Blackguard is Decent-Good.

Behemoth is at least good.

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PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 9:22 am 
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Rune Knight only good, what a change that is ;P I don't think he ever even got a big nerf.

Kinda shocked to see Ascendant as poor, the only skill that seems weak on him is Stonegaze

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PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 4:12 pm 
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Dekar wrote:
AM is probably Very Good with the cloud to stop heroes, ulti to stop pushes, banish to increase own attack damage and team spells. And a useful siege spell.


I'll move her. Very Good is for heroes I see picked almost every game that tend to do well, and I think AM fits into that category. She has a lot of versatility in skill setups and is a good pick on almost any team.

Dekar wrote:
Treant is Decent?


I don't see a lot of people playing Treant and when I do he's not game-changing. I'll consider moving him up to Good but I'd like to see him played a bit more first.

Dekar wrote:
Rue the Sorrow Liege is Very Good with lots of hp, strong nuke, speed aura, healing fort, fear.


Rue doesn't get picked every game and from what I've seen his effectiveness is hit or miss. Once item-stacked he's a beast but in the early-mid game he's hardly even scary. I'd like to see more play on him.

Dekar wrote:
Soul binder definitly deserves at least a rank of Good, just ignore that hero nuke skill and take everything else.


He was played a lot with the Decoy buff but I haven't seen him used well since then. I'll move him to Good, but I'm skeptical about anything higher.

Dekar wrote:
Tac has massive damage potential with over 1000 range, auras, invisibility and promoted sorcs. -> very good.


If this were still an older version I'd agree with you. Recently nobody's been playing her, and while that doesn't mean she's bad, it's hard to put a handle on where she fits. What I have seen are mediocre results, but that could very well be due to a poor player rather than a poor hero.

DarnYak wrote:
Rune Knight only good, what a change that is ;P I don't think he ever even got a big nerf.


His ultimate is really easy to interrupt, otherwise he'd be in Very Good. I think he's less effective on the newer maps.

DarnYak wrote:
Kinda shocked to see Ascendant as poor, the only skill that seems weak on him is Stonegaze


His ultimate is good. With the exception of dropping heroes on unpathable terrain, Ravenous Dive does very little. Terra Smash isn't amazing. Stonegaze doesn't do much either. Aberration is very good, but is useless after the enemy team gets the item counter. His high health is a plus. I'd consider moving him up to Decent if he had better skills ;P


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PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 8:23 pm 
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Kind of surprising to see Neph in Good when he doesn't get used much. :O

I'm not sure if I agree with Naga's placement. Geyser is OP due to its short cooldown, but other than that, I don't think she has a lot of impact on the game.

Icespinner definitely has high damaging skills and an awesome innate. However, most of his skills get ruined by dispels and he seems pretty easy to kill. I don't really remember many games with him.

I'd put Blackguard in Good because his skeleton is a good asset and he does pretty well at surviving.

Behemoth is probably around Decent. Maw forces him to get close to deal damage. His AoE support skill is mediocre. Anchor might be good with the talent but it needs to be invested in to make it strong and is only practical against heroes. His Ult is really only useful against spawns due to the zombies being easy to avoid.


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PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 9:14 pm 
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watermelon wrote:
Kind of surprising to see Neph in Good when he doesn't get used much. :O


You're right that he's not popular, but I've seen some players do well. He might belong better in Decent, but I'd like to see him played more first.

watermelon wrote:
I'm not sure if I agree with Naga's placement. Geyser is OP due to its short cooldown, but other than that, I don't think she has a lot of impact on the game.


As is she gets picked almost every game. Her innate is amazing, Befuddle and Ki Blitz are both really strong. Until Geyser is nerfed I think she fits in Very Good.

watermelon wrote:
Icespinner definitely has high damaging skills and an awesome innate. However, most of his skills get ruined by dispels and he seems pretty easy to kill. I don't really remember many games with him.


Agreed, I'll move him. Most of his success has been due to poor play by opponents and ignorance of dispels.


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PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 10:51 pm 
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I keep thinking of how to nerf swashy/inf properly, but it feels like they've already been hit by just about every justifable nerf that won't gut their core abilities in some way.

FYI, i'm bug fixing all the draft related stuff, then more balance changes/revamps for this sunday.

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PostPosted: January 18th, 2012, 6:54 am 
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The best way would be to nerf her stealth, that's the biggest advantage when not properly countered.

Turning it into a short duration stealth without movespeed bonus may already be enough.
Or no stealth at all but a little bigger movespeed bonus and normal skill cooldowns reset on use. ( Might be a buff. Can be recycled as Talent idea! ) :o

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Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar: :D
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer


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PostPosted: January 19th, 2012, 11:53 pm 
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Inf should have her own tier below Hag, because that is how god fucking awful she is.

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PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 8:57 am 
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^You haven't been playing recent games with her. I think she got banned in all the draft games we played. =P

I feel that Blitz is a core ability/concept of Inf. If she doesn't become invisible, she isn't much of an infiltrator.


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PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 10:31 am 
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Are there some recent patch notes I can see about changes to Infiltrator to make her a viable hero in any lineup?

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PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 1:02 pm 
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Icon for Crimson' Squall's wrong btw.

Quote:
I think she got banned in all the draft games we played.

I know at least one of those bans was me, and that was exclusvely because I didn't want to deal with Sabo on Stormwail.

I will say this about the Inf debate: I think she's the only hero that actualy changes how everyone plays (buying invis detection and general awareness of her).

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PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 2:51 pm 
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DarnYak wrote:
I will say this about the Inf debate: I think she's the only hero that actualy changes how everyone plays (buying invis detection and general awareness of her).

DarnYak

I play very differently when there is a low health divine wizard around.
I play very differently when there is a hag in the game.
I play very differently when there is a time cleric in the game (I quit lololol imba shit).

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PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 3:05 pm 
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Quote:
I play very differently when there is a low health divine wizard around.

The same is true being around almost every hero. The difference here is there's a constant and map wide change in playstyle. You also generaly don't buy items specifically to counter that one hero.

Quote:
I play very differently when there is a hag in the game.

Relaxing some because of a completley useless hero doesn't really compare ;P

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PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 3:07 pm 
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When people start going int and maxing blind instead of missing dives all day then you'll see what I mean.

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PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 3:54 pm 
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Blade rain go!

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<EotA@Azeroth> YAKS GO MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar: :D
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer


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PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 8:55 pm 
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I'm curious are we just looking strictly at the ability of any hero(X) to kill other heroes in this discussion?


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PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 9:10 pm 
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Nick.Scryer wrote:
I'm curious are we just looking strictly at the ability of any hero(X) to kill other heroes in this discussion?


Nope. Anything goes.


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PostPosted: January 21st, 2012, 9:08 am 
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Emberwraith isn't the greatest PVP-type hero, but he's a good support hero, from my experiences. Also, his ultimate ability is just spectacular for sieging/killing spawns.

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PostPosted: January 21st, 2012, 9:33 am 
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I think Harpy is slightly underrated. I agree her dive is to use a perfect pun, is hit and miss at least in a 1v1 situation, but I've found that diving into a fight that is already taking place yields better results and one might end up with more kills. Also her ult rapes in any sort of group fight.
I think High Oracle might be a bit overrated.
Also Forlorn Martyr is underrated as well.


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PostPosted: January 21st, 2012, 5:38 pm 
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SeasonsOfLove wrote:
Emberwraith isn't the greatest PVP-type hero, but he's a good support hero, from my experiences. Also, his ultimate ability is just spectacular for sieging/killing spawns.


I think he has potential but he does poorly whenever I see people play him. More usage and success would grant him a higher tier.


Nick.Scryer wrote:
I think Harpy is slightly underrated. I agree her dive is to use a perfect pun, is hit and miss at least in a 1v1 situation, but I've found that diving into a fight that is already taking place yields better results and one might end up with more kills. Also her ult rapes in any sort of group fight.


I'll consider moving her up to Poor. I don't think Swoop does enough damage for how difficult it is to hit with. Her ultimate has a horribly long cooldown and only hits spawns without a snare. Backlash is good but relies on your opponent making a mistake. Blind is decent. Blade Rain has an insane multiplier but requires you to be at melee range with a low HP hero. I feel like there's always a better choice at this point in time.

A lot of heroes rarely, if ever, get played, and that contributes to their standing. Harpy is almost never played, and when she is, she does exceedingly poorly.

Nick.Scryer wrote:
I think High Oracle might be a bit overrated.


I discussed naga above. Until Geyser gets a change I think she deserves her spot.

Nick.Scryer wrote:
Also Forlorn Martyr is underrated as well.


He's really weak to dispels and doesn't see a lot of play. If you can provide an argument as to why I'll move him.


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 5:10 pm 
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Inf definitely needs her own tier above God.

Probably could endure a AOO damage nerf and Mine cooldown increase.

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Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar: :D
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 5:50 pm 
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Yeah Infli is really good, especially with nets. Invisibility detection is not the strongest counter to her since Blitz is also used for mobility.
AoO's base damage and randomness could be reduced. I think toning down the damage for mines would be a better nerf for mines. Or make mines get killed in one hit so that detecting them will actually be worthwhile.
I think Infli is best at killing off heroes that are almost dead or scaring off squishy heroes. In a 1v1 situation against Swash, I think Infli would be forced to run off.

From today's games, Neph was a pretty good disabler, but I felt like he was more of a minor annoyance compared to the other heroes, like AA.

Aero is a pretty solid hero if you ignore Maelstrom. Innate is nice for reducing dependence on mana regen, Tempest is great against spawns, Hold Person is a powerful disable that works really well with any allied hero, Soar is a useful utility skill, and Mana Storm is uncounterable. I've never seen her in a Verdant game though.


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 6:31 pm 
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I am so confused by this. There are certain veteran players who know for a fact that inf is useless but you guys place her at the top of the tier list like she cant be touched.
Read the topic I created and please explain why those points are wrong and how she is actually useful
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1929

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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 6:52 pm 
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I primarily think of Infil's role as to kill off weakened/low-life heroes, unlike Swash where he can pretty much leap in anywhere and start killing. If she tries to kill other heroes, it's generally better that she does it with an ally hero present because a 1v1 situation is unfavorable to her (pretty much impossible to land an AoO).

Unlike what jamn said about PKers, I think she does better at killing heroes early on when people can't really afford to buy invisibility detection and most heroes don't have much life. AoO's base damage is good enough at the low levels, close to Lich's Rend Soul but scales faster.
At higher levels, AoO's random scaling can be extremely high (think I got 1400 in one game before) but not as useful since most heroes have higher life and randomness can't be depended on. However, mines become extremely good at decimating pushes which still makes Infil useful.

AoO should not be compared at all to Swoop. You only need to make sure that Infil is behind the target when she begins the cast. (Thus, it's possible to get face stabs.) If you use her mostly to kill off weakened heroes like I said, AoO gets even easier to pull off since they're generally running away.

Her mines allow her to get gold from spawns so that she doesn't always need to worry about getting hero kills. In contrast to what you say, it takes ~10 seconds to lay down two mines which is good enough to damage spawns (Level 1 mines are pitiful and should only be used as vision providers). You can bait spawns to stay around the mines so that you don't need to prepare that much.
Mines should be primarily used as a tool against spawns since opponents will generally become more wary when they get hit/killed by them. Even if she fails at killing heroes, she should still have success against spawns since mines are nearly uncounterable.

Her chasing skill isn't spectacular but she can still do it effectively. Blitz can be used to move faster while Blink (you should really only have one level in this because the leveled effects are almost worthless) can be used as a last-ditch attempt to deal the last blow. She lacks disables, but you can make up with this by using items (Mindgem, Nature Orb, nets, etc.).

I do agree that Pkers are generally less useful in smaller maps, especially for Infil who can't make a lot out of her mobility. On the other hand, it gets easier to micro mines, especially if you share control with your team.


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