The Great Hero Review: Undead

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The Great Hero Review: Undead

#1 Post by DarnYak »

I think the undead team suffers from better design/balance overall, and as a result lacks some of the really strong instant damage to compete against Elves/Creeps on their own.

Rue:
- Order Attack: Same as tact
- Mortal Strike: Strong, possibly a bit too much
- Royal Guard: Should be very effective at letting him tank, and mitigate hero damage, but I don't see them that often. Not much offensive, although they can be used to block
- Despair: Good for getting out of surrounds / interrupts, but not sure anyone takes more than one level
- Forlorn Crown: The damage aura is strong (a little too much), but nobody uses any of the other auras
- Shadow Bastion: Healing is overpowered, damage is weak (but its suppose to be), not sure how many people use its utility as a command tower

Neph: Too messy for here + see the neph post

Emberwraith:
- Molten Prison: Good for stun/teamwork, and sometimes catching enemies in the ult
- Pyroclasm: Dissapointment of a spell, it does a lot of damage to spawns that stay in the aoe + stay alive, heroes should never be hit by it though. Shortening its cast time I think would make it broken. Planning to make it do 100% (or more) damage to enemy heroes caught in the main blast, but also have some sort of larger blast area that heroes couldn't avoid (like rocks shoot out at the heroes)
- Cauterize: Dispel needs to go
- Flare: AoE stun..not bad but doesnt' seem to synergize well with anything, not exciting either
- Smoke Cloud: Doesn't seem used often, but can be insane for tanking. I know there was a recent game where a bunch of heroes were pounding on him and he just couldn't be killed
- Corona: Damage might be a little low

Forlorn Martyr:
- Static Charge: Useful, but kind of hard to control as a heal due to the discharge
- Ion Surge: I've seen this be pretty insanely strong, but also seen it fizzle out, so probably good when used right
- Polarity: Can be insanely broken when combined with Ion Surge, kind of annoying to deal with as the target hero. Probably should play with range, duration, and cooldown. At one point i was going to let it be cast on allies to heal the target while damaging enemies - could also change the spell to do the same in reverse (so the target would take damage from being near enemies, which are healed)
- Streak: Good mobility, not sure how many levels people put into this
- Thunderstorm: Too strong, too annoying, needs major tweaking. AoE size is insane, and lasts forever on buildings. The miss rate is pretty insane too, I could not kill a Stormspire with this on it because i kept missing
- Stormspire: Not exciting, but very strong attack speed buff and other utilities. I want to nerf this while giving it some sort of other fun boost

Defiler:
- Corpse Trap: Mana cost probably too high. This spell used to be brutal in earlier versions (when it was on Dread Shaman as a skill to level up), now I'm not sure it's very useful. Might also be ineffective, I'm not sure. Needs a boost though.
- Pestilence: Can decimate waves, but often seems sort of weak.
- Devouring Plague: I would argue this a fairly balanced spell but EXTREMELY ANNOYING. Plan isn't refined but i want to make it a lot less passive, something like it lasts a short time but any damage defiler does will refresh it's duration. Redefining it as an Injury so that it is dispelled by heals would help too
- Exhaustion: Not really used as far as I've seen, my own attemtps to use it have been less than thrilling
- Blight: Good building damage, good mana return, good attack buff, I'm not sure if the spell is popular but I'm pretty sure its strong
- Frailty: Really strong but feels like it needs a little more

Incarnation:
- Mark of the Reaper: Not sure I like how this turned out. With it a lot of spells are pretty strong, without it a lot of spells seem ineffective. Maybe make it more spammable, possibly even 0 cooldown, but with a higher mana cost so there's more of a concious decision to use it.
- Rend Soul: Damage could be higher, a bit broken in some situations (vs. aberration, verdant falls, capture mode)
- Remorseless: Not sure I ever see it used
- Dark Altar: Mixed feelings, sometimes it can do a lot of healing, othertimes it seems worthless. Not sure anyone understands its aoe heal mechanic either. At the very least it needs a stronger AoE healing graphic
- Gravebind: Roots are usualy useful, but this one feels lacking.
- Avatar: Not scary at all, hard to even know its being used. Seems mostly useful for the revive. Kind of wonder if I should just treat this like Dread Shaman's ult and consider making it his inniate

High Oracle:
- Clairvoyance: Dispels a few things (that's fine), and reveal is always good - probably underused, I know i've helped allies across the map spot stuff but I dont know if anyone else does that
- Zen Archery: Ought to be really strong, not sure it works out that way
- Ki Blitz: Good, mana possibly too high
- Befuddle: Seems like it should be strong, but it seems hard to notice having any effect
- Nemesis: I always try to use these with no real success. Wondering if they should be converted to have some automatic familiar-like control to them. Not sure what else to do with them
- Geyser: Great, besides lagging a bit too much

Putrid Eidolon:
- Infestation: Very good/useful, doesn't do insane damage anymore, seems perfectly fine imo
- Wilting: Strong aoe
- Entangling Seed: Little hard to control/use right, but still good
- Spore Cloud: Feels a little weak
- Fungal Armor: Strong, but doesn't feel overpowered
- Rotting Grove: I love seeing this even though I question how effective it actualy is

Ascendant:
- Shimmer: Near useless
- Terra Smash: Pretty good, might need a bit of a boost at lower levels
- Stonegaze: I always try to use this spell to no good effect. Strong in theory, but never taken. AoE might be too small, or it travels too slow, I dont know what to do with it
- Ravenous Dive: Strong ability, but i've yet to find a point where i'm happy with it. Currently i feel its on the weak side
- Abberration: Some might argue its broken, but I don't think so
- Hell's Fury: Very Good, graphic feels a little off though (coloring)



And one bonus hero since making anothe rpost would be stupid

Glacial Tyrant:
- Avalanche: Awesome
- Arctic Cataclysm: Strong
- Frigid Blast: Not sure this does quite enough in the mana restore/heal department, but aoe root is always ok
- Shatter: Strong damage, kind of hard to pull off
- Icy Barrier: A rune shell tha'ts more balanced
- Deep Freeze: Great ult

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Re: The Great Hero Review: Undead

#2 Post by watermelon »

Again, I haven't really played EotA much with real people so take my suggestions with a grain of salt.

Rue:
- Despair: I would only get one skill to escape if I become surrounded.
- Forlorn Crown: Yeah, the damage aura always seems to be the best one coupled with the fact that Rue is very hard to take down. The only alternative aura I would use would be the movement speed aura. Perhaps have some kind of incentive for the other auras?

Emberwraith: I actually never understood how to play him correctly.
- Pyroclasm: Definitely would want to see some kind of improvement.
- Flare: Boring, not that useful except for interrupting channeled spells sometimes.
- Smoke Cloud: Pretty boring.
- Corona: Dislike how silences can instantly end the ult.

Forlorn Martyr:
He's pretty annoying without any forms of dispel.
- Static Charge: I think the heal is much more useful than the discharge which usually only happens to spawns.
- Ion Surge: Pretty strong. I'm not sure but I think he still does an insane amount of damage if he has Glaicial Tyrant's barrier.
- Polarity: Definitely troublesome if you're surrounded by your creeps. If you're facing Plight, it's fun to cast this on abberated units.
- Thunderstorm: What was really annoying about this is when it's on buildings/Storm Spire as it's impossible to counter and makes it near impossible for the defending team to fight back.
- Stormspire: Agreed, not really cool as other ults. Like the ult Dread Shaman has in a way, though I think it's more useful.

Defiler:
He's also pretty annoying without any forms of dispel.
- Corpse Trap: I think it's okay but it's generally like a passive since you set it on auto-cast and forget about it. Not that it's bad though.
- Pestilence: Strong, but it doesn't always seem to bounce correctly to other units.
- Devouring Plague: VERY ANNOYING. The reason why you basically need a dispel if you can't kill the Defiler quickly enough.
- Blight: Not exciting to use, but awesome with its mana talent.
- Frailty: I would only want to use it when I think I can kill the hero or I'm facing a Str hero. You could make it so that Defiler gets some of the Str temporarily. I don't think it really needs to be improved besides being non-dispellable.

Incarnation:
- Mark of the Reaper: Makes him able to stay without healing. I think it would be nice if it was spammable but that would probably make it broken.
- Rend Soul: Very strong early on; gets weaker in the end, but much easier to spam with. I don't think it's bad as is.
- Remorseless: I think it goes well with Dark Altar. It's fun seeing all those red numbers pop out too.
- Dark Altar: It has utility. You could try to make it more obvious that the healing is done around the Incarnation.
- Gravebind: I think it's useful for an interrupt. The mana-reducing effect isn't too noticeable.
- Avatar: Change it. Broken when Incarnation is used against an Undead team. Besides the Undead charm effect, it's really only useful for Reincarnation.

High Oracle:
- Clairvoyance: Counters the Scarab's Nightmare. It's also useful for detecting invisible units.
- Zen Archery: It really doesn't fit with her other skills, but it's very strong when int is stacked.
- Ki Blitz: Pretty strong if you level it all the way. It's inferior compared to Mass Healing though so it could have some tweaking.
- Befuddle: I think it's a very strong slow. Lasts a long time too. Probably one of the most irritating slows to face.
- Nemesis: Never had real success with this. Familiar idea would be interesting, but the unit itself needs to become better. Maybe Mana Burn?
- Geyser: Awesome. I hope you only nerf the CD.

Putrid Eidolon:
- Entangling Seed: Kind of annoying that it doesn't deal damage to ethereal units.
- Spore Cloud: Can have a really long duration. Perhaps shorten the duration and make the effects stronger?
- Fungal Armor: Really low shield life in lower levels. I guess the life regeneration kind of makes up for it, but it gets destroyed rather quickly as the hp regen is unnoticeable.

Ascendant:
- Shimmer: Good against debuffs? It doesn't do anything else.
- Terra Smash: Good slow but a bit hard to use sometimes.
- Stonegaze: Not sure what it's really supposed to be used for. An immobilizing heal?
- Aberration: Strong, but it is countered by some skills that wouldn't be considered dispels (Neph's Black Globe for instance).

Behemoth:
- High Tide: Good for clearing creeps away from you and interrupting channeling spells. Not much else, but it's an innate.
- Maw of Death: Pretty hard to eat more than one creep now. I wish the area of effect was a bit bigger.
- Miasma: Strong skill though it depends on corpses.
- Anchor: I feel like the stun > slow now. The slow isn't as absurd as before, but it seems too easy to get out of the anchor now.
- Brainlust: Filler skill?
- R.I.P. Tide: Fun ult.

Glacial Tyrant:
- Avalanche: Great skill.
- Arctic Cataclysm: Kind of easy to avoid sometimes, but it's good.
- Frigid Blast: Roots is good.
- Shatter: Very strong, not too hard to pull off though since if you chase the hero off, that's better for you.
- Icy Barrier: Like the effect more than Rune Shell. I wish damage wouldn't be done when the unit is invisible though, or the freezing effect isn't shown.

Blackguard: So OP when you first introduced him. Now, not so much, though I heard he's fun to play as.
- Fiend: He's sometimes stupid but overall good familiar.
- Stormbolt: Not too weak or strong. Kind of seems overloaded with side effects.
- Shadowclap: I think it's really weak now, especially for a skill that deals delayed damage.
- Shadow Stride: Good for invis and mana restoring if you invest in talent. Don't think many people would level this up all the way though.
- Unwilling Sacrifice: Mainly used on Fiend since it gives a lot of life back. Pretty much a one skill point wonder.
- Doom Hammer: Never really liked the ult too much since it's just a buff.
Last edited by watermelon on November 5th, 2011, 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Great Hero Review: Undead

#3 Post by Dekar »

Rue: Driving force of the undead!
- Mortal Strike: Strong!
- Royal Guard: No need for it when you have a flying fountain fortress around.
- Despair: Good 3. skill, lets you chase and safely return or disable enemies. Or just help pushing by taking the melee line out of fight.
- Forlorn Crown: The damage aura is my favorte, speed is awesome for killing heroes, a good player would use damage reduce vs towers when sieging. Pretty good skill overall.
- Shadow Bastion: Most useful as fountain and escape zeppelin replacement. Dont forget to bring a few worker along for repairs!

Emberwraith: Too much utility.
- Molten Prison: Good for stun/teamwork, and sometimes catching enemies in the ult.
- Pyroclasm: Only good vs spawns.
- Cauterize: Dispel needs to go
- Flare: The least useful stun in the game?
- Smoke Cloud: I use it because his other skills suck. Moving slowly sucks too, but this hero has nothing else to do anyway.
- Corona: Damage might be a little low

Forlorn Martyr: Give me more int!
- Static Charge: Useful
- Ion Surge: Good, everyone loves ethereal heroes.
- Polarity: My favorite skill, underestimated by many?
- Streak: Invest more points here if you want to build a stormpire network to streak over the whole map.
- Thunderstorm: Too strong, too annoying, needs major tweaking. AoE size is insane, and lasts forever on buildings. The miss rate is pretty insane too.
- Stormspire: Not exciting, but very strong attack speed buff and other utilities.

Defiler: I leech all your mana and you cant do a thing except dispel.
- Corpse Trap: Dont remember.
- Pestilence: Can decimate waves, but often seems sort of weak. Can kill multiple units lategame and deal a good amount of damage to heroes.
- Devouring Plague: I would argue this a fairly balanced spell but EXTREMELY ANNOYING. Plan isn't refined but i want to make it a lot less passive, something like it lasts a short time but any damage defiler does will refresh it's duration. Redefining it as an Injury so that it is dispelled by heals would help too. Yes please.
- Exhaustion: Does heartstop work now? I think exhaustion itself is not a weak skill.
- Blight: Does nothing to heroes and you already invest into Pestilence, no skillpoints left for this. But I think its not bad.
- Frailty: Lets you instantkill weak heroes with pestilence.

Incarnation:
Loooong time since I played him. Nuke and heal should be pretty good.

High Oracle:
- Clairvoyance: Helping others requires too much micro. :D
- Zen Archery: Very good against low armor heroes.
- Ki Blitz: Good
- Befuddle: I dont use it.
- Nemesis: Dispel has to go! Im not a fan of a lot of summons to micro.
- Geyser: Great indeed.

Putrid Eidolon: Cant kill me.
- Infestation: Probably fine.
- Wilting: Strong I guess
- Entangling Seed: No idea.
- Spore Cloud: No idea.
- Fungal Armor: Dont know how much it heals for now. Should block less damage than runeshield.
- Rotting Grove: Can you change the target cursor to match its attack range, now that it can be build everywhere?

Ascendant:
- Shimmer: Dispels stuff, lets you evade skills, looks funny.
- Terra Smash: Ok, might need a bit of a boost at lower levels.
- Stonegaze: Never taken.
- Ravenous Dive: "Strong" ability, but i've yet to find a point where i'm happy with it. Currently i feel its on the weak side! Talent to increase effective strength for lifting heroes a bit?
- Abberration: Some might argue its broken, but I don't think so. I dont think I ever played against an abber garg.
- Hell's Fury: Very Good, we all love the graphics.


Glacial Tyrant:
- Avalanche: Awesome
- Arctic Cataclysm: Strong
- Frigid Blast: Not sure this does quite enough in the mana restore/heal department, but aoe root is always ok
- Shatter: Strong damage, kind of hard to pull off. Negative armor rocks!
- Icy Barrier: No idea
- Deep Freeze: Great ult


Super bonus hero:

Black Guard: Stack str for easy win. 2 easy nukes, lots of heal, a slow and a speed boost, invisibility and even more str turn this tank into a balance nightmare! Oh and he has a pet!
- Innate: Extra damage and can be used for heals. Didnt try giving it some items yet. Shadowballs might be broken.
- Stormbolt: Too easy to hit someone. Change it to a shockwave that hits the first enemy or something.
- Shadowclap: Nice skill idea, talent makes it too strong. Reduce talent from 90% time reduction to something like 50%.
- Corpse thing: Heals for godly amounts starting with level 1, base heal should scale with level.
- Invisibility: Perfect chase, ambush, escape skill. Can regenerate your mana. Boosts agi so you can smash your enemies better? Is there anything this hero doesnt have?
- Ultimate: Massive str bonus, damage bonus and life leech turn a killer into a unstoppable killingmachine.
<EotA@Azeroth> YAKS GO MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar: :D
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer

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Re: The Great Hero Review: Undead

#4 Post by DarnYak »

Shadowclap: Nice skill idea, talent makes it too strong. Reduce talent from 90% time reduction to something like 50%.
Just to clarify, because the tooltip is a little akward. The AoE damage travels at a specific speed (agi based), the talent increases that speed. So a 100% increase in speed (which is what the talent almost does) is a 50% time reduction. I dont' know if its still too strong even knowing that.

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Re: The Great Hero Review: Undead

#5 Post by Dekar »

I thought it had a fix delay regardless of distance. Would make it easier to escape at melee range, thats where it is used most of the time anyway and wont make much of a difference at medium range.

When I played without talents on low level I noticed it takes incredible long to appear when cast further away, then later in the game I used it in combination with stormbolt from close range and with the talents and basically always hit with it.
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Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar: :D
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer

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Re: The Great Hero Review: Undead

#6 Post by Mandein »

Individually the undead heroes seem very balanced to me.

Emberwraiths pyroclasm wipes out entire waves and if an enemy hero doesn't evade it then so be it.

Your ideas for the Defiler's Plague are good. Follow up wounds should be necessary to keep the target plagued, from any source not just the defiler of course. And an absolute maximum duration that it can be in effect.

I have seen players use the Incarnation's Avatar ult to turn the tide of many battles but I have not played him enough to utilize it so well.

I love the High Oracle. If I know I might be somewhat distracted during a game I befuddle and use zen archery for 150ish dmg a hit midgame.
Zen Archery and its talent rule.
I don't find Ki Blitz to be strong enough to focus on, but it is nice to have.
Befuddle is great, slows and subtracts agility making it good against all, great against agility heroes.
I tried nemesis a couple of times but it obviously wasnt worthwhile.
Geyser <3 <3 <3

Glacial Tyrant too is great as is.
Frigid Blast is fine, the aoe root is wonderful.
I'm always conflicted which skills to focus on as Tyrant because they are all so great.
"Imagine you're like the fabled King Midas, and you have the power to convert matter with a single touch. Except that instead of gold, everything you touch turns into shit. And everything it touches turns to shit. Before you know it, the whole world is shit, and it's all your fault."

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