Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

An Aeon of Strife map for Warcraft 3
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 Post subject: Nephilim: Seeking Input
PostPosted: July 23rd, 2011, 10:36 am 
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I'm planning to take a hard look at Neph for the final version release, because he seems like a complete clusterfuck to me that arguably should be removed. However, my perceptions could be completely off as I'm bad enough at eota and completely miserable with that hero.

I would appriciate it if you guys could provide all the feedback you could on Neph. Anything at all - experiences, strategies, preferred builds, hated skills, strategies, whatever. Any changes I'll end up making will be pure guesswork otherwise. Suggestions are fine, but I primarily need any sort of knowledge about how Neph actually plays.

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PostPosted: July 25th, 2011, 8:45 am 
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So the result is nobody's ever played this hero? Awesome.

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PostPosted: July 25th, 2011, 12:02 pm 
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Yes, have played him, enjoyed him quite a bit. Pre-fix to his cooldowns he was incredibly fun but incredibly OP, gonna play him some more now so I can give a more up-to-date review.


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PostPosted: July 25th, 2011, 12:32 pm 
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Wait, I fixed his cooldowns? I don't remember that.

Edit: Holy crap I did, awesome.

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PostPosted: July 25th, 2011, 12:45 pm 
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They will be broken in the next version, don't worry.

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PostPosted: July 25th, 2011, 12:53 pm 
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All I want is 2 buttons to spam, one button for the damage skill cycle and one for the mana restore skill cycle.

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PostPosted: July 25th, 2011, 1:04 pm 
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He used to be pretty OP. Now I think he's solid. I personally don't use him but haven't seen anything crazy.

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PostPosted: August 14th, 2011, 11:51 pm 
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From my impression of him, which was a while ago:
The concept - Being able to keep track of skills and know when to use which. Very difficult but really awesome.

Reality - Recognize what icon does what. Spam everything till they die. Buy more mana items. Repeat.

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PostPosted: August 25th, 2011, 9:38 am 
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As for me, Neph is the most interesting hero. I like that his primary attribute is agility, but most spells scale from strength and intelligence.
Must have items: Talisman of the Sun, Demon's Horn, Black Dragon's Heart, either Orb of Fury (which I prefer) or Orb of Skill.
If I'm not able to buy Items from Marketplace, I take: 3 Rings for every stat, Orb of Skill, Circlet of Mana and either Warrior's Ring or Executioner's Hood or Helm of Champions.
This hero can't be tank or support, so he is only a damage dealer. So for a full damage you should use: Shred, Scorch, Blastwave for AoE and Slow, Dusklash, Black Globe, Adrenaline, Pain, Vampiric Bite, for ultimate Execute (best ever <3) and Ignis Salvo.
Other skills are optional or even worthless for that hero.
Wish Flame Gate will be not just blink, but fire damage where hero appears. And Conflagorate should always summon treants when consumes trees (bug). Also I don't like Betrayal and the Innate. I know sometimes it's usable and funny, but just not my kind of stuff.
So newbie with wrong build of that hero will hate him cause he will never kill someone. But insane players with full damage build will incinerate everything 1vsEverything.
Agree with previous post about reality of that hero


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2011, 8:42 pm 
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I think False Alliance should be modified in some way to have a duration and/or be dispelled when the Nephilim damages (not just attack) the target hero.

He's easier to spam play with when you get at least one point in all his skills.


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PostPosted: September 25th, 2011, 6:58 pm 
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watermelon wrote:
I think False Alliance should be modified in some way to have a duration and/or be dispelled when the Nephilim damages (not just attack) the target hero.

He's easier to spam play with when you get at least one point in all his skills.


Bumping this. I think False Alliance is bugged at the moment but it may have been too strong to begin with.


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PostPosted: September 26th, 2011, 12:04 am 
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I personally prefer to play Nephilim as heavy strength/tanking hero with some supporting damage. The build type is focused around War and Blood skill sets. Fire has some decent skills, but is mostly irrelevant for this type of build. These two sets also contain virtually all of Neph's strength-based spells, as well as having tanking-like capabilities, namely Retaliate, Close Wounds, and Vampiric Bite, so maxing these out as soon as possible is imperative for this particular build type. However, you'll need plenty of cycling skills regardless of what style of play you choose, so have at least one point into every skill set, I typically go Shadow before Fire though because of the Shadowveil :D , the invis is really handy, and allows for quick escapes, followed by healing/mana rejuvi, then returning to absorbing huge amounts of damage and kicking ass. You can do whatever you like after War and Blood are maxed, but don't forget to pay attention to Power, as Execute is also strength-based, and has relatively low damage at first, especially without stacked strength.


* Important Note:
I mentioned before that I like to play this hero as a tank. However, this may seem sort of odd, as Neph's strength gain is relatively low when compared to other tanking heroes. His primary attribute, actually, is agility, but this doesn't mean he can't tank. He can. He has two heals, several tank-supporting skills, and numerous, fairly good nukes all with strength modifiers. That being said, certain items are a must grab while others can be a huge waste of money. Aim for anything that adds strength, and stay away from hit point, hp regen stuff, namely the Life Orb, Plate Helm, and Hydra Mail. Strength rings are a great investment, but wait until you've got the cash or until you're other stuff is upgraded.

Ideally, the first item should be the Dragonscale Mask. Yes, you're only gaining +10 strength, but that's fine, you don't need tons of strength right away. Instead, get it for other little goodies: 15% magic damage reduction, +25 armor, and +10 Int. Oh, and the added socket, you'll want to grab the Knowledge gem right away, the mana return from it is a must for Neph. There is also a gem that gives you an additional 25% magic damage reduction, which would make you an incredible tank, however, I don't recommend this unless you're sure you can handle cycling mana wise, the last thing you want to do is waste a slot for mana regen that could otherwise be used for more strength. Armor is also vital, but slightly less so. +25 from the mask is a good start, but not enough for effective tanking. For this you've got two choices: the first is investing crystal into armor upgrades. Since you don't have to worry about talents, this seems like a reasonable way to go. If you'd rather prefer investing crystal into other things, the second choice then is buying items that contain it (obviously). You're probably thinking Knight's Armor (+60 armor), Hydra Mail (+46 armor), or Plate Helm (+50 armor) right about now. Don't do it. Instead, grab the Strength Belt, which doesn't actually give you any armor but simply blocks incoming damage, essentially the same concept. The strength gain from it is also awesome. Beyond this, you're looking at getting rings, assuming you've got the money.


Last edited by SuIIy on April 19th, 2012, 4:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: November 3rd, 2011, 5:17 pm 
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Quote:
This hero can't be tank or support, so he is only a damage dealer.


Absolutely not true.


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PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:42 am 
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Neph is not very good early-game but he can be outrageous late-game if he gets the chance to build properly. Early-game hero killing pretty much has to be done with an ally since he needs to get at least one skill point in all skill sets to be able to rotate skills properly.
He feels somewhat weaker on larger maps like Stormwail than on smaller maps like Kedge, which allow for more hero combat, as he alone isn't good for defending lanes against creeps.

I know you don't really want to make changes to Neph, but I think number tweaking shouldn't be too hard to do.
In general, you should look at fixing the high mana cost scaling for some of his skills since you managed to fix the cooldowns for him. Mana cost is vital to Neph since he should be abusing his skill to cast a lot of spells, but that could just be my own bias for playing Neph.

If you actually want to replace skills, which is probably more trouble than it's worth, having a skill that can cause AoE buffs/debuffs would definitely be nice and could fit in War. I also would like to see more supportive skills for Neph but that's probably my own preference speaking again.

Here's what I think about each skill Neph has:

Italicized skills are those that I consider useless in terms of how much it can do for Neph.
Besides being rated on their usefulness, skill may also be judged on how they can cycle for Neph.
Cycling skills for Neph is mostly important when Neph is trying to kill a hero which should be his primary role.

False Alliance: Troll skill. It's mostly good for early-game and best used against PKers or AI. Still wouldn't mind seeing this replaced.

War
    This skillset has the most skills that ironically don't contribute too well to the battlefield.
    Worth investing for Shred damage which doesn't get reduced by magic resistance. However, it's difficult to boost damage with items in comparison to other damaging skills. Retaliation and Swipe damage also makes it worth investing.
  • Shred - Great damage output, especially against creeps, and great placement as it's right after Execute. The only bad thing about it is not hitting air, but nets help.
  • Distract - Primarily useful for rotation since it has no mana cost, so it doesn't seem like a garbage skill. However, lack of scaling eventually makes this garbage when the other buffs in the same cycle are much more useful. Would graduate from garbage status if Neph could cast it on himself to synergize with Retaliation.
  • Retaliation - Great skill for rotation. Can help clear creeps later on in the game since Neph can't tank without the proper items or investing in Blood.
  • Plunder - It seems to have a nice shield destroying ability but placement is rather horrid and it's a melee skill. Would graduate from garbage status if it could do something against spawns.
  • Swipe - Can weaken creeps and that's pretty much it. AoE is nice though.
Flame
    Has a lot of nice utility skills and provides decent damage output. All spells have mostly good scaling.
  • Blastwave - Main use is in weakening creeps. Against heroes, it generally loses out to Shred which can follow up with Scorch, unless a slow is desired over damage.
  • Scorch - Although it's weaker than Duskslash and Shred, it can be used against much more things, including the nice ability to hit buildings. It's in a slightly awkward position with Life Tap and Fireballs but in general purpose, it's fine.
  • Fire Trees - A cheap distraction against creeps. Can also be used to kill trees, which is generally helpful. It bugs sometimes though by not creating trees even though I target trees, don't know why. I wouldn't mind seeing this changed to just summon one Tree with a lot of hitpoints that can have Distract cast on it.
  • Flame Gate - Movement skill is good. Nice skill placement too since Execute comes right after.
  • Scintillate - Free mana for allies. Not that great for restoring Neph's own mana since it takes too long and Life Tap is more efficient. Immolation effect is mostly for fun though it can ruin False Alliance trolling.
Shadow
    My favorite skill set due to having very low mana cost skills.
    A decent skillset for a more offensive build by relying on Duskslash. Other noteworthy skills for scaling are Black Globe and Shadowveil.
  • Evasion - I'm not a big fan of evasion but it's good for rotation and in sieging towers.
  • Silence - Standard silence with a rather long duration. Doesn't scale that well in terms of mana cost and its long cooldown makes it hard to use the other Shadow skills.
  • Black Globe - Primarily good against heroes for that long duration armor debuff and screwing with items though buff overwriting can get in the way. In terms of skill rotation, Retaliation is better but it can be used to phase out creeps, especially with the skill's very low mana cost.
  • Duskslash - Strong finisher skill against heroes along with being able to last-hit spawns early-game and killing most late-game. One my favorite skill for Neph's damage output, despite it's temporary damage mechanic.
  • Shadowveil - Great invisibility and mobility skill, mostly for ambushing.
Blood
    Always a must due to Life Tap and Pain. Worth investing for Close Wounds and Adrenaline, though the longer-ranged Pain also comes in handy.
  • Vampiric Bite - I don't think I'll ever like this skill. Feels overshadowed by Shred even though it "technically" does more. Close Wounds helps more with survivability though. It does allow Neph to hit ethereal units and its placement isn't too bad as Life Tap comes right after so it could maybe be used to heal then restore some mana. Maybe.
  • Life Tap - The main reason why Neph is even viable since it's his main form of restoring mana.
  • Pain - The damage is generally ignorable but the stun isn't. Almost always used in PKing.
  • Close Wounds - It's really mediocre early-game, but it eventually becomes more useful once Blood is leveled up and can make Neph self-sufficient. Being immune to Wounds is also great.
  • Adrenaline - Great buff for Neph, especially if he invests in attack damage. Its position in the skill cycle is somewhat unfavorable since it comes after Close Wounds but it's still fine.

Ultimate
    For an ultimate skill set, the main use comes from one skill.
  • Betrayal - This will almost always be useless against real people except in those rare situations where preventing a hero from getting healed by allies might be useful. It sometimes bugs out by not placing the buff on the target. When the AI is involved though, this skill is the best troll skill in EotA.
  • Fireballs - Good sieging skill. Only complaint is that the fireballs are extremely slow at moving and will most often be wasted by killing creeps.
  • Vision Giver - Not that useless but still hard to find a situation in which I would want to use this. Since it's cooldown is shorter, it could be used for skill rotation.
  • Immortal's Breath - Can sometimes save allies though an invested Close Wounds will be more useful.
  • Execute - One of the best skills for hero killing due to the hold and kidnapping. Only downside is sometimes bugging Neph's skill set.

Build I primarily use: War(damage), Shadow (damage), Blood (Close Wounds and Adrenaline), and Ult with at least one skill in Fire for better skill cycling.
Fire can also swap Shadow for damage if one doesn't like the temporary damage from Duskslash.
For an item build, I mostly focus on the provided actives: Root Orb is great for roots, Skull Buckler for health. Talisman of the Sun is definitely useful. Stats worth boosting for damage output are Int and attack damage.

Hero killing skill chain: Shred -> Scorch -> Pain -> Duskslash -> Execute -> Shred -> Scorch -> start praying that the enemy hero dies since Pain will be on cooldown.
Alternatively, replacing Pain with Retaliation and Execute with Adrenaline can make the cycle continue longer to rack up damage until the enemy hero is within PKing range.
Against flying heroes, Neph should use a net right before casting Execute so that Shred can hit afterwards.


Last edited by watermelon on August 20th, 2013, 7:38 pm, edited 7 times in total.
to reflect current state as of 1.14g4


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PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 2:50 pm 
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watermelon wrote:
  • Plunder - Garbage skill. I often find that the dispel gets rid of Black Globe (which comes before it) so it's not a really good skill to cycle with. You should get rid of the dispel and lower the mana cost. Would also be more useful if it could do something against spawns.

I think you're overlooking his 'shield-destroying' ability.
However, I'd agree that dispelling 'blackglobe' is a bit broken. Plus, the money you get could be skill dependent (agi maybe?).

Also, seeing as we're on the topic of 'plunder', I'd like to put forth the idea of having Neph take a portion of the shield that he destroys. Basically, he steals their gold aswell as their shield. :D

EDIT: Also, considering how useless 'betrayal' is, I'd like to recommend a slight tweak to it. Basically, it causes the target to become hostile to their allies like usual, but it also causes the target to behave as if it's perma-taunting for the duration of the spell.
Atleast that way the creeps will go for the target.


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PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 4:09 pm 
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I don't know how much damage Plunder even deals to shields. Besides, I think Duskslash (which is in the same skill cycle) works enough for destroying shields, and it's ranged. Destroying shields is also only relevant if 3 specific heroes are present in the game.


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PostPosted: April 19th, 2012, 12:36 pm 
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watermelon wrote:
Here's what I think about each skill Neph has:
(Italicized skills are those that I consider useless in terms of how much it can do for Neph.)

False Alliance: Troll skill. If you change it to break upon damage, I think it can be only used as a survival skill or countering Inf (or messing with TC's Fork). Wouldn't mind seeing this replaced.


This is the reason why Nephilim's broken. False alliance usually doesn't allow you to target him. I remember playing a game where I just false allianced everyone on the enemy team and just spammed skills endlessly to push them out. This needs to change.

Quote:
War
    Has skills that ironically don't contribute too well to the battlefield.
  • Retaliation - It's an okay skill though I don't really find it desirable since Neph really can't tank without the proper items. The primary reason I use it is to cycle. Has a rather good level up but War isn't really useful.
  • Distract - Somewhat of a garbage skill but could work as an interrupt that's more reliable than Bane's innate. Mana cost shouldn't increase as it only issues the order once. Primarily useful for cycling but limited by the need for close allies. Use would probably be higher if it could be cast on Neph since it can work with Retaliation.
  • Shred - Great damage output. The only complaint I have is that it's melee and can put Neph into an uncomfortable position. Not bad for cycling as it can come after Blastwave.
  • Swipe - I feel like it doesn't deal that much damage without enough investment in Str. Hard to aim as well and the AoE seems lacking. Damage could be increased.
  • Plunder - Garbage skill. I often find that the dispel gets rid of Black Globe (which comes before it) so it's not a really good skill to cycle with. You should get rid of the dispel and lower the mana cost. Would also be more useful if it could do something against spawns.


I'm going to say this: War only has 3-4 relevant skills in the rotation. Retaliation (for creep clearing), Shred (damage rotation), Swipe (creep clearing again), and the occasional plunder against rune shell. The most reliable skill is shred and then retaliation. War is a good idea to invest in if you're going strength/execute neph because you're gonna be up close anyway to deal damage. (It's a lot more reliable late game than int neph)

Quote:
Flame
    Has a lot of nice utility skills.
  • Scorch - Okay skill, not that strong. At least it's ranged and can be used against structures.
  • Blastwave - Great slow. Could be used against spawns with higher levels in Flame.
  • Scintillate - Good when Neph isn't under pressure since mana restoration takes forever. Immolation effect is unnoticeable. Definitely more useful for allies rather than Neph except that Neph often can't afford to cast this on allies.
  • Flame Gate - Teleportation skill is good.
  • Fire Trees - Useful for distracting the spawns for a while. Rather gimmicky since it needs trees. I wouldn't mind seeing this changed to just summon one Tree with a lot of hitpoints that can have Distract cast on it. Otherwise, make the trees have a life bonus from Neph's stats.


Flame is probably the best skill tree overall for neph, but the problem is that while they're all good, none of them really excels and mostly acts as the rotation spell. All of these skills other than the fire trees are relevant, and even the trees are used often by me.

Quote:
Shadow
    Probably the best skill set Neph can have with very low mana cost skills.
  • Evasion - I'm not really a fan of evasion and Retaliation in this skill cycle seems more favorable. Something like a weaker version of Harpy's Blind or mass evasion for allies would probably be more helpful. This is probably the only skill in Shadow that isn't really useful.
  • Silence - Useful for the interrupt. Greater AoE with each level is not that helpful since the duration remains the same. I think it would be nice if the mana cost decreased instead.
  • Shadowveil - Great skill for escaping or ambushing as Pain comes after.
  • Black Globe - Primarily good against heroes for a long duration armor debuff. Great for cycling with its very low mana cost.
  • Duskslash - Probably my most favorite skill for damage output. It's a pretty strong skill with a nice, low mana cost.


I only use three skills of this tree and they're Dusklash, black globe and shadowveil, in order of importance. Dusklash is by far the MOST damaging non-ultimate spell neph has. Scorch doesn't even come close to the damage output. Shadowveil is for initiating and escaping, while black globe is usually just another spell I use to get on with the rotation (it's really not that great,but it's one of the better spells in that rotation should pain be on cooldown). Sometimes I do find a good time to use that big AoE silence though.

Quote:
Blood
    Has two very important skills for Neph.
  • Adrenaline - Seems like an okay skill but I often find myself not using it late-game, probably due to its position in the skill cycle (Execute comes to mind). Would be nice if it could be cast on allies.
  • Life Tap - Necessary skill as it should be Neph's main form of restoring mana. You could reduce cooldown or have the conversion rate increase by a small bit with each level in Blood but it doesn't seem too necessary to change this skill.
  • Close Wounds - Mediocre heal. Comes right after Life Tap which isn't always good since you have to wait to use it.
  • Pain - Great for stunning and comes nicely after Shred. It's one of the reason I don't like leveling up Blood though since it just gets higher mana cost for a small increase in damage. Mana cost shouldn't be increased that high. Stun duration is okay as is.
  • Vampiric Bite - Useless. Wastes a lot of mana to do a pitiful amount of damage and thus heals Neph by a pitiful amount. Mana cost should definitely be lower.


I do not use adrenaline because of life tap being right after it. Neph is spammy so you will need all the mana you can muster,because of the importance of pain/life tap, you usually skip adrenaline and close wounds and vamp bite. I'll occasionally use close wounds, but it's pretty low on priority.

Quote:
Ultimate
    Sadly has two garbage skills.
  • Execute - Great skill. Sometimes bugs the skill set though, probably due to pausing Neph.
  • Immortal's Breath - Great for instant health. Cooldown is discouraging though with the heal already having a high mana cost.
  • Fireballs - Good skill. Only complaint is that the fireballs are extremely slow at moving.
  • Vision Giver - Useless mana and cooldown waster. The consumable item, Shadowsight, and even False Alliance are better since they're actually a permanent duration. Mana cost should definitely be lowered. Wouldn't hurt if the duration was actually much longer since it is an ult.
  • Betrayal - Useless except maybe on healers? As if it wasn't more useless, it often bugs and doesn't always have an effect on the target. I'd rather see a skill that reduces healing on the target to a very low amount and have a longer duration. Mana cost is rather high.


Execute is the ONLY skill worth mentioning here unless you isolate someone with ignus salvo (and even then,you're chasing a target still). The old ignus salvo was worth mentioning since it did damage (mind you, it did TOO much damage, both players and buildings). Ignus salvo's just your crowd clearing spell (that doesn't really clear much now).

Quote:
Build I use: Shadow, Fire, and Ult with at least one skill in Blood and War. Emphasis on Int because that gives more mana and buffs Duskslash.
Favorite skill chain: Pain -> Duskslash -> Execute -> Blastwave -> Shred.
Stun, damage, stun, slow, damage. Could be repeated up to Duskslash after which the chain fails since Execute would be on cooldown. Ineffective against Flying heroes.


Try using this:
Execute -> blastwave -> shred -> pain -> dusklash -> scorch -> helm activation -> shred -> pain -> dusklash -> scorch -> distract -> shadowveil (wait for cooldowns and repeat). Alternatively, you can skip the helm activation by just chasing and wait until blastwave is off cooldown.

But right now, Int neph's pretty underwhelming as a duelist/crowd control since ignus salvo's basically a scorch AoE dividing up the damage as well.

However, str/armor neph is average overall because he can be in the frontlines dealing damage and actually make use of his retaliate (which is overall his best crowd clearing spell...for a price). If you can tank a creep wave with neph, they can only stop you if they bought merc heroes, which you can just duel and pick off. Overall, Neph's an ok pick if you know what you're doing. But his only influence right now isn't killing heroes, it's mostly just clearing waves because nobody in the right mind would sit there and take damage from neph under false alliance. And this is why DarnYak cannot buff nephilim in any way shape or form. His false alliance not allowing opponents to target him is the biggest problem overall, and the fact that he gets to hear all their ally chat as well. If Yak wants to do something about nephilim, the first thing he needs to do is GET RID OF FALSE ALLIANCE. Then he can change numbers around because I know I can ruin games with neph by simply stopping creep waves with retaliate and tanky items while teasing the opponent's heroes (It's more annoying than tank hag because you can't kill this guy until he hits you,and that's usually when he has a full rotation and you have a high chance of dying or you're being picked off, but a reminder that he can false alliance you again afterwards).

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PostPosted: April 20th, 2012, 7:47 pm 
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Quote:
Alternatively, you can skip the helm activation by just chasing and wait until blastwave is off cooldown.

Alternatively, don't use Scorch and use Retaliate instead to cycle through the skill cycle to get Blastwave.

Revised skill cycle: Pain -> Duskslash -> Execute/Retaliate (skill cycle move, no cd) -> Blastwave -> Shred
Repeat until Neph runs out of mana.


I agree that False Alliance should be replaced or changed to be more temporary. Neph could probably make Font battles never end by using FA on all enemy heroes and not breaking FA.
I feel that you're overestimating Neph's ability to control creep waves a lot though unless you only have late-game in mind (where most heroes can do the same thing).


Retaliate is insane against BP, creating a ton of images if BP uses innate or hammer on Neph.

The hardest thing about using Neph is that he pretty much sucks early-game with False Alliance being the only reason he survives until he reaches level 15 at which he can start trying to kill heroes.


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PostPosted: April 20th, 2012, 11:42 pm 
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watermelon wrote:
Alternatively, don't use Scorch and use Retaliate instead to cycle through the skill cycle to get Blastwave.


If you use Retaliate,then shred will be on CD for about 2+ seconds (since his cooldowns are like 3 seconds,or at least it feels like it).

Neph can easily control creep waves with his retaliate focused kit (if you focus secondary on blood and use close wounds it's even better) and a couple of items (looking at you knight's armor and damage blocking shield) is already enough to tank waves to no end, especially since other heroes can't hurt him, but can only affect him through buffing their creeps (but he can still tank pretty well in that case). And the armor build isn't as gimpy until 15 because you're more durable and can take hits more often with retaliate (although you're still not that great overall at clearing waves yet, but you can regenerate health a lot easier with non-combat items due to false alliance), and it might take a little bit of gold to get going (but then again, so does every neph build,but this is less so because you're only going against creep waves). Just a little small info to add onto the BP thing, if neph walks up to BP with retaliate in the middle of BP's ult, loads of counterattacks will be launched.

_________________
DarnYak wrote:

And what the fuck was ithinkng when i gave level 6 befuddle 70% movement reduction?

DarnYak


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