Mystic Swashbuckler

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Mystic Swashbuckler

#1 Post by Ethereal99 »

To put it simply; Dash is an ability with a four second cool down and medium damage which makes escape nearly impossible. I would suggest raising the cool down to around 15 seconds or so to balance it out and give low health ranged heroes a chance to escape. At the moment, being confronted with a full health Swashbuckler around level 25 is a sure death without being next to an unengaged spawn wave or at least two other allied players.

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#2 Post by Discombobulator »

Either that, or you get some skill.
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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#3 Post by GeneralFunk »

Low health heroes do have a chance to escape...

Arcane Archer has level 4+ familiar that gets entangle for heroes who get near, which last a good while.

Aeromancess has her innate and Hold Person.

Time Cleric has heal, ebb, and phase.

Infiltrator has escape and blitz.

Aboreal Crusader has a push AoE, heal, entangle trap, and runs ridiculously fast.

Arcane Mistress has Infernal Binding and Mind Fog.

Ice Spinner has Brainfreeze, Ice Lance harassment, and the most obvious... Webs.

Grim Hag... Backlash and... LuL flying.

Incarnation has Gravebind, and his nuke is a big time deterrent to keep chasing.

High Oracle has Gyser, heal, and Befuddle.

Defiler has his super high ranged devouring plague along with pestilence while running away and him chasing, Swashbuckler will end up having to bail due to either lack of mana and/or health.

Blazing Priest... Well... You got me there.

Against more competent players, I find the big clunky heroes a LOT easier to kill with melee oriented than the low health ones that have cunt annoying interrupts and holds, as you can see listed above..
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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#4 Post by Ethereal99 »

Virtually every escape method you've described have far longer cool downs than the Swashbuckler's Dash which would mean they'll work until they either stop holding or until his Dash refreshes. I know there isn't a complete imbalance for the fleeing but the Swashbuckler will win in almost every instance he has more health and I think that's a problem.

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#5 Post by CryptLord1234 »

Ethereal99 wrote:Virtually every escape method you've described have far longer cool downs than the Swashbuckler's Dash which would mean they'll work until they either stop holding or until his Dash refreshes. I know there isn't a complete imbalance for the fleeing but the Swashbuckler will win in almost every instance he has more health and I think that's a problem.
Let's actually take a look at that. They don't need to be spammable on a level of Dash, just need to give Swashy enough of a "fuck off!" or get the hero far enough away:

AA: She moves fairly fast; entangle + mass haste = she's gone. Swashy, even if he has Dash, won't catch up.

Aero: Innate = Swashy has NO chance to catch up.

TC: If she can't get out of there in 8 seconds (or at LEAST heal herself) she deserves to die.

Infiltrator: She does have low HP, but given that she can be invisible for a long time, and can move incredibly quickly while invisible, if she's aiming to get away, Swashy might hit with 1 Dash. Might.

Arboreal Crusader: Yeah, Tangleweed has a long cooldown -- It lasts a very long time. I tend to set one down behind me for just these circumstances. Entangle, heal, pushback, keep running.

AM: Mind fog means he can't cast Dash, and Infernal Binding gives her enough time to get out.

Ice Spinner: Might not get away -- at worst, it's a mutual death situation. He can deal a lot of damage with Ice Lance spam, and Swashy can't Dash with Brain Freeze.

Grim Hag: Flying. Next.

Incarnation: Gravebind lasts awhile, and as GeneralFunk mentioned, losing 2/3 of your health is a HUGE "fuck off" from him.

High Oracle: her heal doesn't really help her that much, but Befuddle does. Ridiculous slow, and if he gets close, Geyser and GTFO.

Defiler: Can't Dash without mana, and if you get close to dying, he'll probably pop his ult and Pestilience you.

Blazing Priest might. . .well. . .he could Backfire, I suppose. DoT whenever Swashy casts something, and suicide his minions. Might do enough damage.

EDIT: stupid spelling error.
"L4D2 promises to set a new benchmark for co-op games. . ." Like L4D promised to hand us new maps, survivors, and zombies? We've seen how that works.

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#6 Post by Dekar »

Just nuke him from afar. And if you stay behind your spawns you should easily figure out when he tries to comes for you, giving you enough warning time to make his life painful.
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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#7 Post by Lunargent »

How hard is it to run in a zig zag instead of move-clicking back to your base? Dash does damage in a straight line between the Swashbuckler and his target location. Doesn't seem that difficult to me to simply "not be in that line". Sure, I might get hit with the first one as he closes in, but once a chase down scenario begins, it's not hard to count to 4 and zag appropriately.

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#8 Post by Ethereal99 »

Let's look at some of these one at a time.
___________
AA (Arcane Archer): She moves fairly fast; entangle + mass haste = she's gone. Swashy, even if he has Dash, won't catch up.

Counter point: that assumes you're dumping a ton of points into mass haste instead of your meteor shower and, to top it off, entangle isn't controllable! To use that you would need to forsake a ton of damage through meteors, be facing him one on one and run as soon as you see him because your familiar is going to entangle as soon as he's in range. Definitely not a workable counter.
___________

Aero(mancees): Innate (Aiding Winds) = Swashy has NO chance to catch up.

This one can actually work, 45% run speed is a ton even for a good swashbuckler to catch up to. Swashy might get one wack out of each dash so it's a race against HP but it isn't certain doom so...maybe.
___________

TC (Time Cleric): If she can't get out of there in 8 seconds (or at LEAST heal herself) she deserves to die.

/agree
___________

Infiltrator: She does have low HP, but given that she can be invisible for a long time, and can move incredibly quickly while invisible, if she's aiming to get away, Swashy might hit with 1 Dash. Might.

An invisible speed boost effect pretty much guarantees she's getting away from anything. Unless she's facing down some big channel holds or severely screws up she'll make it out of almost anything.
___________

Arboreal Crusader: Yeah, Tangleweed has a long cooldown -- It lasts a very long time. I tend to set one down behind me for just these circumstances. Entangle, heal, pushback, keep running.

This one is more than a little iffy. The pursuing Swashy must either be dumb as hell or just plain unlucky to let himself fall into an entangle and then stay behind the target to let that push work against him.
___________

AM (Arcane Mistress): Mind fog means he can't cast Dash, and Infernal Binding gives her enough time to get out.

Counter point: Mind fog has a very limited range, unless she's planning on circling some towers early game or in the middle of a friendly spawn wave it isn't going to do much good. Infernal Binding is a prime example of, "...or until it lets go." On a good day it'll set him back one dash and that's very easy to overcome.
___________

Incarnation: Gravebind lasts awhile, and as GeneralFunk mentioned, losing 2/3 of your health is a HUGE "fuck off" from him.

Counter point: This is a decent enough counter but assuming the Swashbuckler will be nearly dead is going a little far. If he isn't scared off after one rotation the Incarnation player will absolutely need to pop his ult and hold out for a second round or face death.
___________

High Oracle: her heal doesn't really help her that much, but Befuddle does. Ridiculous slow, and if he gets close, Geyser and GTFO.

Counter point: If you're going hero killer, and thus buffing Befuddle, it would stand to reason you're not going to save your Geyser to fend off an attack but if you do this could work.
___________

Blazing Priest might. . .well. . .he could Backfire, I suppose. DoT whenever Swashy casts something, and suicide his minions. Might do enough damage.

Blazing Priest seems to get the short end of the stick in everything but siege. Oh well nobody plays him anymore anyway. :lol:

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#9 Post by CryptLord1234 »

Ethereal99 wrote:that assumes you're dumping a ton of points into mass haste instead of your meteor shower and, to top it off, entangle isn't controllable! To use that you would need to forsake a ton of damage through meteors, be facing him one on one and run as soon as you see him because your familiar is going to entangle as soon as he's in range. Definitely not a workable counter.
Well, first off, you can have a single point in Mass Haste and, I think, it would work. Yeah, the entangle going off as soon as swashy enters its range is a bit of a problem, but it does stall him, and it's reasonable to assume he'll be going for you, so take some action. It's the dual fact of he can't move combined with your increased move speed that gets you outta there.
Ethereal99 wrote:This one is more than a little iffy. The pursuing Swashy must either be dumb as hell or just plain unlucky to let himself fall into an entangle and then stay behind the target to let that push work against him.
How must he be 'as dumb as hell' to run into an invisible ward? I mean, the AC player can run over the damn thing; if swashy's trying to catch you, he must also run over it, and it entangles him. If he's entangled, he can't move, I can push back and keep going.
Ethereal99 wrote:Mind fog has a very limited range, unless she's planning on circling some towers early game or in the middle of a friendly spawn wave it isn't going to do much good. Infernal Binding is a prime example of, "...or until it lets go." On a good day it'll set him back one dash and that's very easy to overcome.
I dunno, IB when he gets close, then mind fog right on top of you gives you some time to get out without being dashed at, but yeah, her escape options are rather limited.
Ethereal99 wrote:This is a decent enough counter but assuming the Swashbuckler will be nearly dead is going a little far. If he isn't scared off after one rotation the Incarnation player will absolutely need to pop his ult and hold out for a second round or face death.
I think you may be underestimating the nuke a tad bit but, combined with holding swashy in place and doing that much damage, if you run afterwards, you'll probably have enough time to get a second volley off, which will scare him off. And even then, don't most people save his ult for just such occasions?
Ethereal99 wrote:If you're going hero killer, and thus buffing Befuddle, it would stand to reason you're not going to save your Geyser to fend off an attack but if you do this could work.
Geyser is just thrown in there for possible results; Befuddle, combined with your move speed, should easily keep him away. That slow is pretty impressive by itself.
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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#10 Post by Reaper »

I actually can't remember the last time a swashbuckler killed me in a game. Most heroes have a way of getting away if they need to, as has been stated.

I also usually get the blink consumable if a hero killer is becoming a problem
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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#11 Post by CryptLord1234 »

Reaper wrote:I also usually get the blink consumable if a hero killer is becoming a problem
Yeah, I hadn't even gotten there yet. That and anti-magic pots can be helpful against most hero kill attempts.
"L4D2 promises to set a new benchmark for co-op games. . ." Like L4D promised to hand us new maps, survivors, and zombies? We've seen how that works.

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#12 Post by Lunargent »

Blink sticks. Healing potions. Nets. Invisibility potions.

They're each cheaper than the 400 gold the Swashy would get for killing you.

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#13 Post by Ethereal99 »

Ethereal99 wrote:that assumes you're dumping a ton of points into mass haste instead of your meteor shower and, to top it off, entangle isn't controllable! To use that you would need to forsake a ton of damage through meteors, be facing him one on one and run as soon as you see him because your familiar is going to entangle as soon as he's in range. Definitely not a workable counter.
CryptLord1234 wrote:Well, first off, you can have a single point in Mass Haste and, I think, it would work. Yeah, the entangle going off as soon as swashy enters its range is a bit of a problem, but it does stall him, and it's reasonable to assume he'll be going for you, so take some action. It's the dual fact of he can't move combined with your increased move speed that gets you outta there.
1. One instance of Mass Haste will raise your movement speed by 5%. 105% move speed is not enough to get away from his Dash.
2. It's not going to be a very good match if I'm expected to run from him whenever I see him.
Ethereal99 wrote:This one is more than a little iffy. The pursuing Swashy must either be dumb as hell or just plain unlucky to let himself fall into an entangle and then stay behind the target to let that push work against him.
CryptLord1234 wrote:How must he be 'as dumb as hell' to run into an invisible ward? I mean, the AC player can run over the damn thing; if swashy's trying to catch you, he must also run over it, and it entangles him. If he's entangled, he can't move, I can push back and keep going.
If you run into the trap and give the AC time to run away, it would take a pretty newbie Swash or a lot of bad luck to not Dash to either the side or in front of the hero you're chasing.
Ethereal99 wrote:Mind fog has a very limited range, unless she's planning on circling some towers early game or in the middle of a friendly spawn wave it isn't going to do much good. Infernal Binding is a prime example of, "...or until it lets go." On a good day it'll set him back one dash and that's very easy to overcome.
CryptLord1234 wrote:I dunno, IB when he gets close, then mind fog right on top of you gives you some time to get out without being dashed at, but yeah, her escape options are rather limited.
Q.E.D.
Ethereal99 wrote:This is a decent enough counter but assuming the Swashbuckler will be nearly dead is going a little far. If he isn't scared off after one rotation the Incarnation player will absolutely need to pop his ult and hold out for a second round or face death.
CryptLord1234 wrote:I think you may be underestimating the nuke a tad bit but, combined with holding swashy in place and doing that much damage, if you run afterwards, you'll probably have enough time to get a second volley off, which will scare him off. And even then, don't most people save his ult for just such occasions?
Aberration is more than a little over powered so I'm not going here again.

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#14 Post by CryptLord1234 »

Ethereal99 wrote:1. One instance of Mass Haste will raise your movement speed by 5%. 105% move speed is not enough to get away from his Dash.
2. It's not going to be a very good match if I'm expected to run from him whenever I see him.
Never said run all the way back to your base. Drop back, he can't move (Nor dash, I don't think, although I'm not entirely sure) so you can drop meteors on him.
Ethereal99 wrote:If you run into the trap and give the AC time to run away, it would take a pretty newbie Swash or a lot of bad luck to not Dash to either the side or in front of the hero you're chasing.
Given that it lasts 4 seconds and deals damage over time, AND sets it up so that you can get a Gale off, AND gives you time to fire off a heal on yourself, it's not that terrible either. If the Swashy's been keeping this up, if you pay attention, you can set a pair of 'em so he dashes from one to the next.
Ethereal99 wrote:Aberration is more than a little over powered so I'm not going here again.
One: Abberation is Plight's ability, not the the Incarnation's. Two: Incarnation's ult prevents him from dying for a little bit, takes control of hostile Undead nearby (He's on the Undead team), acts as though all spells have Mark of the reaper. Given Scarab's insta-full heal and DoT aura, or the pure damage potential of things like Grand Rune, or, hell, the 'you can't get away' Mockery, it's not too bad.

As for everyone else. . .thus far we've been going on about heroes themselves, without items (which you should always have.) She can get away rather reliably with certain items. For that I refer you to:
Lunargent wrote:Blink sticks. Healing potions. Nets. Invisibility potions.

They're each cheaper than the 400 gold the Swashy would get for killing you.
"L4D2 promises to set a new benchmark for co-op games. . ." Like L4D promised to hand us new maps, survivors, and zombies? We've seen how that works.

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#15 Post by Ethereal99 »

Ethereal99 wrote:1. One instance of Mass Haste will raise your movement speed by 5%. 105% move speed is not enough to get away from his Dash.
2. It's not going to be a very good match if I'm expected to run from him whenever I see him.
CryptLord1234 wrote:Never said run all the way back to your base. Drop back, he can't move (Nor dash, I don't think, although I'm not entirely sure) so you can drop meteors on him.
If all you're expecting is to fall back and meteor shower him you're getting into a one on one conflict that AA simply can't win against Swashy.
Ethereal99 wrote:If you run into the trap and give the AC time to run away, it would take a pretty newbie Swash or a lot of bad luck to not Dash to either the side or in front of the hero you're chasing.
CryptLord1234 wrote:Given that it lasts 4 seconds and deals damage over time, AND sets it up so that you can get a Gale off, AND gives you time to fire off a heal on yourself, it's not that terrible either. If the Swashy's been keeping this up, if you pay attention, you can set a pair of 'em so he dashes from one to the next.
It's all player skill and one invisible trap isn't enough to keep a decent, determined Swashy away and, again, a decent, determined Swashy is not going to be caught up in twister after twister and trap after trap.
Ethereal99 wrote:Aberration is more than a little over powered so I'm not going here again.
CryptLord1234 wrote:One: Abberation is Plight's ability, not the the Incarnation's. Two: Incarnation's ult prevents him from dying for a little bit, takes control of hostile Undead nearby (He's on the Undead team), acts as though all spells have Mark of the reaper. Given Scarab's insta-full heal and DoT aura, or the pure damage potential of things like Grand Rune, or, hell, the 'you can't get away' Mockery, it's not too bad.
One: I got the names confused so thanks for pointing that out. Two: Thanks again for proving my point.
CryptLord1234 wrote:As for everyone else. . .thus far we've been going on about heroes themselves, without items (which you should always have.) She can get away rather reliably with certain items. For that I refer you to:
Lunargent wrote:Blink sticks. Healing potions. Nets. Invisibility potions.

They're each cheaper than the 400 gold the Swashy would get for killing you.
Once more proving my point; We should all be expected to lose inventory space, gold, and RUN every time we see Swashy? That's hardly balanced.

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#16 Post by Discombobulator »

Sigh. Swashy is a hero killer hero. He's meant to kill, or at least harass enemy heroes.

Those enemy heroes can be pushers, siegers, nukers, buffers, healers, tanks... Every hero has several roles. Swashy's primary role is to farm crystal and disrupt enemy heroes enough for your team to do whatever they want to do (usually to win the game, in the long run).

You seem to have a problem with the fact that a hero who can't push, siege, nuke spawns, buff, heal or tank can kill heroes who CAN do several of those things. Understand that while Swashy may be killing enemy heroes, he isn't doing anything else. EotA isn't won by hero killing but by being intelligent.

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#17 Post by Reaper »

I'm also not sure why you assume whomever is playing swashy is god's gift to gaming, whilst the person being attacked is too dumb to avoid being killed.
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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#18 Post by Ethereal99 »

Discombobulator wrote:Sigh. Swashy is a hero killer hero. He's meant to kill, or at least harass enemy heroes.

Those enemy heroes can be pushers, siegers, nukers, buffers, healers, tanks... Every hero has several roles. Swashy's primary role is to farm crystal and disrupt enemy heroes enough for your team to do whatever they want to do (usually to win the game, in the long run).

You seem to have a problem with the fact that a hero who can't push, siege, nuke spawns, buff, heal or tank can kill heroes who CAN do several of those things. Understand that while Swashy may be killing enemy heroes, he isn't doing anything else. EotA isn't won by hero killing but by being intelligent.

[Reaper] Edited.
I'm glad to see that the EotA team does see the problem.

Having hero killers on a map where all you really control is a hero is rather difficult to near impossible to cope with. While I'm doing whatever else my hero is supposedly great at doing I'm left entirely open to an attack and the best options I'm given are:

1) Run away
I'm going to be facing a deficit of gold and experience if I submit to their innate hero killer status and in doing giving them more experience and more gold to better kill me when I come back a minute or two later. This is a repeating cycle that will always see the so called "hero killers" as the victors.

2)Waste a ton of gold on consumables and hope to out last them
Chances are they're going to just counter my consumables with their consumables or simply blow through them if they follow the typical pattern of the hero killer and if I do not relent I will die as I would if I had not wasted gold and slot space on consumables.

3)Team up
The most likely and effective counter which means a split in gold, a split in experience and a deficit of protection and pushing in another lane. This one isn't so bad minus the fact that your hero killer can move to an unprotected lane and farm as he pleases creating the same problem as simply running from him and more because by the time he shows up to face me again he will have enough stamina to withstand two people, kill me, and then get away.

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#19 Post by Discombobulator »

tldr, you should get some skill instead of posting walls of text.
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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#20 Post by Lunargent »

I'm sorry you feel the need to resort to something as demeaning as teamwork to deal with an enemy hero. Hopefully this glaring oversight can be fixed in future versions.

EDIT: Also, last I checked in you can have two heroes in an area without an Experience penalty. Specifically because Yak wanted to encourage teamwork.

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#21 Post by Ethereal99 »

Lunargent wrote:I'm sorry you feel the need to resort to something as demeaning as teamwork to deal with an enemy hero. Hopefully this glaring oversight can be fixed in future versions.

EDIT: Also, last I checked in you can have two heroes in an area without an Experience penalty. Specifically because Yak wanted to encourage teamwork.
Hooray! The idea that one hero should be so overwhelming that on even ground it warrants two opposing players to counter him is coming to an end, one addition to the consensus at a time! :D

Also, I did not know that experience does not split between available heroes. That's a very nice change, thanks for telling me.

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#22 Post by Kalrithus »

Swashy while a very good hero killer is for the most part very squishy and is susceptible to any number of nukes to drive him away or kill one that is too greedy. He doesn't achieve godmode status unless its a good person playing him and he's facing noobs that he can farm all day. Teamwork is encouraged in EotA while is why you don't see an xp penalty till 3 heroes in the same row, and even then it's not a very large penalty (to my knowledge this has been around for a rather long time). Heroes are not balanced by making them carbon copies, or giving them all the same capabilities. I understand that you think swashy is overpowered because he can do one thing well, that is killing heroes, although I would argue that fenris, and pre-fix Neph were both superior hero killers with the right build, like all heroes Swashy is just more powerful against some than others. Seeing as how these have been addressed in detail there's no real point in rehashing this any further.
Hooray! The idea that one hero should be so overwhelming that on even ground it warrants two opposing players to counter him is coming to an end, one addition to the consensus at a time! :D
This goes for nearly every hero that gets fed, its commonplace and a good player will know he can't do everything by himself. Never play against me if I'm swashy, I have a feeling you would rage at me :(

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Re: Mystic Swashbuckler

#23 Post by Reaper »

Ethereal99 wrote:Also, I did not know that experience does not split between available heroes. That's a very nice change, thanks for telling me.
This was not a change, it has always been in the game
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