Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

An Aeon of Strife map for Warcraft 3
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PostPosted: August 28th, 2009, 4:46 pm 
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Some artes are really imba, and with only one per game, there is a certain rush to get them. It would be nice if they drop on death to balance out their really powerful abilities.

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PostPosted: August 28th, 2009, 4:52 pm 
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How about a % chance to drop on death based on how much they've been upgraded?

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PostPosted: August 28th, 2009, 5:25 pm 
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NO NO NO NO

and...

NO

This is the worst idea I have ever seen submitted, and no personal offensive to you Dekar. But really?!

They already cost a crapton of gold, then you have to upgrade them, AND there are only one per person. Horrendous idea. Sorry. But there really is no other word for it.

And again, please don't take this personally. :|

No chances to drop either, leave them how they are. Please, for God sake.

I understand some are far more appealing, namely the totem and fury orb, but why not simply add a neat effect to the others and call it a day? They are bloody expensive, let's not punish them even more.

And why the hell should Lich Joe be able to grab my int hammer when I earned, scrimped, and otherwise saved all the money for it? Really bad.

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PostPosted: August 28th, 2009, 5:27 pm 
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I like the idea of chance to drop on death, would discourage people from artifact whoring which is a good thing.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2009, 5:28 pm 
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I'm okay with Artefacts dropping on death. But leave the other items alone such as permanents, consumables, and artifacts.

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PostPosted: August 28th, 2009, 5:35 pm 
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I like the idea of chance to drop on death, would discourage people from artifact whoring which is a good thing.


I have yet to see anyone artifact whore. If you mean grab one within the first fifteen minutes into the game, why is that bad? It is a first-come-first-serve concept.

The only example I can think of is once I saw a newbie Plight with the Dragon's and Fury orb (I know, horrid) but they were within ten minutes of winning anyway, and he was a noob.

Simply put, artifact whoring doesn't happen, at least not enough to do something about it.

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PostPosted: August 28th, 2009, 5:59 pm 
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Best idea I've read in a long time. I'm all for it and it sounds dope.

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PostPosted: August 28th, 2009, 6:20 pm 
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i like the idea. especially since artifacts can't be sold, its not like you would be giving the other team cash. though, and i do hate to say this, i think DN has a bit of a point. getting one artifact isn't a bad thing. hell, one of them is the only way to get a reusable blink item. if this is implemented, i'd like it to be zero chance if they only have one non-upgraded artifact. then increase drop chance based on upgrades and holding more than one artifact (10% per upgrade, 20% per each additional artifact). makes artifact whores more desirable kill targets (kill them potentially get a sweet item), while not screwing over those who just wanted the base use of the artifact.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2009, 6:33 pm 
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I recently played a game where an AM had 3 artifacts, Talisman Storm hammer and flute of the winds, he had invested close to 10k gold in them by the end of the game and had his team not been exceptional he would have basically been a cause for defeat.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2009, 6:56 pm 
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DarkNemesis wrote:
Provide 5 games where this happened then. Otherwise, you may want to stop making claims that don't exist.


He's not making a claim, he's saying that if Yak implemented his idea, it would make artifact whores more of a target, since they can drop one of the artifacts they're holding. Thinking hypothetically, not practically.

Anyway, I'm not entirely sure about it. If it were to be implemented, I think I'd want something similar to coramoor's idea: no dropping for your first artifact, an increase for each additional artifact you hold, and, and this would be the caveat I want, after you upgrade it past level 3, decreases the chance to drop from there.

For instance, with only 1 artifact: 5/10/15/10/2% chance to drop, as it is forged, so as to encourage either A) whoring it or B) keeping it at level 0. (Numbers are picked out of thin air, but show the increasing then decreasing trend.)

This way, people who want the effect, get a base artifact. Those who like the stats can upgrade it, but increase the risk of dropping it for the reward they're getting from it, until it reaches a point where they've spent such a large amount of money on it that it'd be a crippling blow to lose it.

However, I rarely get artifacts anyway, so doesn't make much of a difference to me.

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PostPosted: August 28th, 2009, 9:09 pm 
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The more important part is the effect it'd have on game mechanics. As I see it now, artifacts are a sort of luxury investment if you're bored, rich or if they have some specific use to your hero (Plight and blink stick for instance). They never drop unless you purposely give them to someone else and they cost a helluva lot of money and rarely get upgraded. If you made it so they dropped on death it would completely change the way people think about artifacts (and the manner in which they buy them). It would definitely solve a few minor balance issues (perma-blinking Plight for instance) and would also make them more active in a game as players pick them up off dead people.

The only negatives is perhaps confusion among noobs; who will be distraught when that Talisman +2 gets dropped because they bum-rushed a tower or get ganked, and the potential of someone killing an artifact by attack (though I assume you can solve that?) It'll add another interesting layer to the game and in my opinion is a generally good change, since it makes everything more interesting.

[PS] I apologize I split off that whole excess DN argument. I know some of you wrote long posts that took awhile and it's not meant in any offense, just because I didn't want this blasting off DN's flaming starship to nowhere. I think there's a consensus here you don't need over 9000 replays to determine whether or not people buy more than one artifact a game. In future if DN posts something really disagreeable, just ignore it and chances are I'm going to just split it anyway.

I'm sure there's some reasonable opposition to making them drop on death and I can think of a few (good?) points if no one other than DN is opposed to it on these forums (Yak's input would be cool).

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PostPosted: August 28th, 2009, 11:27 pm 
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oh, and heres a replay to show DN that artifact whoring does indeed happen. two artifact whores on the same team, the defiler and the tact both get multiple artifacts and upgrade them. same replay as in the tower thread, so its a two-fer, showing off devastation gens as well.


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devastation and artifact.w3g [410.15 KiB]
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PostPosted: August 28th, 2009, 11:42 pm 
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If they dropped on death, they'd have to be dropped in cost dramaticly. Like, practicly free.

I dont think any other resource in game can be so easily destroyed, much less become used by the other team. Which means it'd usualy be smarter to wait for someone else to buy it then go steal it.

And don't forget how angry people will get. People got super pissed off when the random artifact deletion bug would kick in. Now, I know a lot of you despise artifact buyers and think they get what they deserve - but nothing is suppose to be in the game as some sort of trap for stupid people.

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PostPosted: August 29th, 2009, 12:27 am 
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Artifacts drop on death would be cool. But how about artifacts that get dropped on death, go back to the artifact shop so they can be re bought?.

Also if not, how about having 2 different artifact shops, like... each team can get the same artifact once.

And it would be cool if Mercenaries could buy artifacts after a short period of time or certain level.

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PostPosted: August 29th, 2009, 1:14 am 
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Wow, this idea ( which I picked up from userport80 in the channel ) caused far better reactions than expected.

The reason why I like this idea is:
Some heroes get their power drastically increased with the right artefact, as in hero killer with blink and massive attack speed, nice damage buff or the long movespeed buff. And only one hero in each game can get it. Its basically the same problem as the obelisk race right now.

Amulet of the Sun can be bought for starting Gold + 500 from scroll + 200 from teammate right from the start, just to give an example, and Sorlag likes to do that.

Both teams should have the ability to aquire each artefact somehow.

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Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar: :D
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer


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PostPosted: August 29th, 2009, 3:34 am 
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Both teams should have the ability to aquire each artefact somehow.


This.

Even if artifacts can't be non-unique like regular items, they could be team-unique.

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PostPosted: August 29th, 2009, 4:49 pm 
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This is stupid. Then everyone would only be PKs or Str tanks. There would be too great of an incentive to completely prevent any deaths, or to ONLY kill opponents as much as possible. People would concentrate on coordinating artifact ganks instead of pushes.

This would take the fun and usefulness out of the artifact system.

If you don't like people buying 1, 2, 3 artifacts, then buy them yourself, or don't team with them, or don't play against them.

I've yet to see a cohesive reason as to why artifacts dropping on death makes the game more FUN for everyone involved. This would completely alter the entire play style of the game, until artifacts became so unappealing that no one purchases them period.

If your argument is that 1 correctly chosen artifact can turn a character imba, the fact is that many consumables duplicate the effects of artifacts, for much less money.

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PostPosted: August 29th, 2009, 5:08 pm 
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I agree!
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Artifacts drop on death would be cool. But how about artifacts that get dropped on death, go back to the artifact shop so they can be re bought?.

Also if not, how about having 2 different artifact shops, like... each team can get the same artifact once.

And it would be cool if Mercenaries could buy artifacts after a short period of time or certain level.


I actually think this is a good idea. Each faction should have their own artifact shop.

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PostPosted: August 29th, 2009, 5:44 pm 
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I'm not really for it, simply because some heroes (like Swash) I'd almost call artifact dependent. Yes they give a large advantage, but it's a fine line between victory and failure.

Just an idea to add to this discussion: if Joe Lich DOES kill you and take your artifact... Go kill him back! Obviously the artifact doesn't give such a big advantage that this isn't possible or you wouldn't've died in the first place. I think the effect would be a nice dose of vengence PvP.

My only concern is that they would then drop the artifact in their base so you can't get it back. Maybe add it directly to their inventory?

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PostPosted: August 29th, 2009, 5:47 pm 
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(like Swash) I'd almost call artifact dependent.


Just out of curiosity, that wouldn't be the orb, would it?

And to add upon this. The blink totem on Gravel is a must for me, and can easily pay for itself. Between this, heavy dmg upgrades, tremor and crumble (maxed), it is just hilarious how easy it is to pouch on poor enemy heroes :lol:

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PostPosted: August 29th, 2009, 6:08 pm 
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A good swashy needs no artifacts, consumables are a much better investment as far as money goes. When he does need permanents an orb of skill and int/leather armor are all he really needs if you're rolling in the money. On the dropping artifacts in base, just have someone use a invis pot to run in grab the artifact and run! :twisted:


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PostPosted: August 29th, 2009, 7:10 pm 
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The Orb conflicts with Flurry last I checked. He probably means the Zephyr Totem for more IAS and more importantly a second blink spell. Fenris does much better with the Orb of Fury IMO.


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PostPosted: August 29th, 2009, 7:37 pm 
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The Orb conflicts with Flurry last I checked.


Really? Damn, that's unfortunate.

As far as arts go, that's the only one I could see him needing. The blink totem would seen like a waste for the most part, however, I'd argue the agil flute to be worth it most of the time. Prolly be my second choice after orb, though with the conflict now, hmm.

Yeah, orb of fury is awesome on fenny. Though stacking warrior's rings is my typical style of play. Oh, and I've come to believe the crit gloves to not be a must after all. With a lvl six ham, he can dish out enough crits to easily compensate for the gloves.

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PostPosted: August 29th, 2009, 8:35 pm 
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I don't think any hero needs an artifact. I think Strych brings up a reasonable point though that it would make PvP more interesting and you could always steal it back.

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PostPosted: August 29th, 2009, 9:22 pm 
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I think Strych brings up a reasonable point that the whole idea of someone else getting your artifact may be a bad idea. Horrid in fact.

Quote:
I don't think any hero needs an artifact.


You have yet to play a PK Gravel then.

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