Taunting Treant Wall

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Is taunting treant OP?

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No
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Total votes: 18

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AlienFromBeyond
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Taunting Treant Wall

#1 Post by AlienFromBeyond »

Coramoor used this a bunch in one spot to form a fucking walls with these. With 2k life you can't hope to dispel it, and the taunts spread out the damage that then gets regen'd. Needs a nerf hard.

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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#2 Post by Lanthis »

We should have towered air more, or siege, or just dropped a command tower to redirect. You could have also set up some siege generators.
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#3 Post by Kalrithus »

counters are there its up to the player to find them :twisted: honestly if you're running into a treant doing this (like me) feel free to use magic immune goblin creeps or mass siege/air, treants won't be able to handle that even fully talented.

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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#4 Post by AlienFromBeyond »

And if they haven't built any spawns in that lane (which with the wall easily holding the enemy off is likely), it's now a simple matter for them to counter it.

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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#5 Post by Lanthis »

At the level this was at, 20,30 something? A typical nuker-caster should be able to drop an entire spawn wave in 2 hits... it's not like the treant is going to come back and wipe out your spawn wave with... ???? what skill???? Or pk you. Granted, rebirth would probably problematic, but still, had we begun towering that lane earlier and more coherently and had decent PK's on our team and hat cora not been hit with the 100% rebirth bug it would have been a non-issue. There is no such thing as an immortal tree wall.
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#6 Post by aegir ravenking »

I would guess that Aliens argument would be that the pressure put on by the tree wall is nowhere near the amount needed to counter it.

You just stop by the lane(no replay given, so guessing it 2 adjoining lanes or is inn/rock with portal), drop a tree, return to your normal lane. The opposing spawns will not be able to hold without a big tower core advantage, you can't "nuke" the treants without dispel, which only the 2 big dispellers will be able to handle realistically. Actually, I can't even remember if you can dispel taunting treant.

If you just leave it, your base won't last too long from the constant push(do to your spawns getting owned). If you baby sit it, another lane gets smacked. And if you tower it, you either get counter-towered, or out towered in another lane.

While I didn't really think of taunting treant as very strong...I really like this idea.

If anything just cut the duration of the tree? I think they last like 10 minutes.
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#7 Post by coramoor2 »

well seeing as this is one of my more enjoyable things to do in eota, i have to say that a full on treant wall is pretty devastating to creeps, and doesn't even require fugly to be in the lane to have its effect. I used it in one pug so effectively (as well as some really nice timing on grasping treant) that all the enemy heros would just leave whenever i showed up in a lane. That said, part of the problem is they last a long ass time, have a lot of hp to make dispelling them problematic, and can actually be affected by some buffs (well at least mass rejuv, the DS was healing my treant wall in alien's complaint for part of the game, that was hilarious).

I can only think of a few counters, and they all seem to be a bit strong compared to the effort involved in setting up a tree wall. for instance: yes you can hit them with dispels, but i don't know of a dispel that does close to 2k dmg to summoned units. and most dispels seem to have a lengthy cooldown so they aren't really that helpful. you could buy wands of negation, but you would need to burn quite a few of them to kill the wall, and considering the ease of setting up a viable wall (only need 3 trees to have a foundation strong enough to hold standard creep waves), the cost is out of proportion. you could also counter them with spawns, but that lets the tree's team counter your spawns, and you really need to spend quite a few spawn towers to reduce the viability of the wall, and its only valid on one lane. now, using command towers to route around the wall seems to be the best idea, but since the placement of the wall (at least the ones i do) are usually just outside the forward base's tower range, it would tend to result in the tree's creep waves just smashing into the base repeatedly.

now, as to how to fix them, i have no clue. they need their hp to be viable at what they do, and the talents for them don't give them a ridiculous advantage in life expectancy. maybe just cut down on their timer a bit? i know they aren't a problem until lvl 20 or so, when it becomes viable to just walk away from the wall and have confidence that it will hold for a minute or two, even with a hero pounding on it. maybe have heros do extra dmg to the treants? i doubt there is an open armor type to do that with though.

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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#8 Post by aegir ravenking »

Ya, most dispellers are out of the picture, if I remember right most dispels at level 6 do 1050 damage to sommoned units. Meaning two castes but the cooldown even when maxed is rather long to just wait around. But the "big two"(Naga and DS of course) despellers can do much more much sooner. Just another case of them being able to make some heroes just cry.
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#9 Post by coramoor2 »

the DS is on fugly's own team though, so the poor elves are left out in the cold. maybe the elves need a super dispeller similar to naga and DS?

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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#10 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

Not much to say about this imo. I haven't seen this strat used hardly ever, so is it really a huge problem? I suppose it could become that way....

Have to largely agree with Kalrithus, be creative. Can't go around nerfing everything just because it may cause a problem for one game in one lane.

Half the time, I don't even get Taunting Trees past rank 3, but that's just me I suppose.
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#11 Post by AlienFromBeyond »

aegir ravenking wrote:I would guess that Aliens argument would be that the pressure put on by the tree wall is nowhere near the amount needed to counter it.
Exactly right.

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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#12 Post by Lanthis »

Dark_Nemesis wrote:Half the time, I don't even get Taunting Trees past rank 3, but that's just me I suppose.
Well, that would definitely make it a non-issue for anyone playing you.
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#13 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

I haven't seen this strat used hardly ever, so is it really a huge problem?
I have a proposal then, other than Alien's complaint, who else has seen this strategy played out as such? And if so, considers it a problem?

I'll make a poll as well.
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#14 Post by coramoor2 »

well, i really dont think the strategy is that OP. it does take some significant time to set up, and is nearly impossible if the treant is being harrassed. that said, it can be rather ridiculous. heres a replay where i use it to setup a blockade just outside a forward base, and then reinforce the wall with towers and some gens to make it virtually unbreakable. i believe the real counter to this is to just not give the tree enough time to set it up. sure my replay shows it taken to an extreme, but i got ignored, and that is not a way to counter anything. if i had been any siege hero and gotten ignored that long, that base would have been leveled. also, near the end one of my team members demonstrates the destructive force of having full obs by siege genning a mountain in the enemy's base, which i thought was hilarious.
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#15 Post by Reaper »

Poll is in this thread, other one is gone.
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#16 Post by Lanthis »

If the trees were permanent, then yes. Like I said, have 2 heroes rape treant, kill spawn waves, keep spawns before the new fortification, and command the besieged lane around the blockade.

Edit:

I don't think ob towers should be affected by tree taunts.
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#17 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

Between Treant's roots, heal (innate), rejuv, and pixies, not sure if there is such a thing as "rape", he can be very hard to take out. :|

I wonder though, could the tree wall be alot of AoE dmg against pushes if you somehow managed to kill them?
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#18 Post by AlienFromBeyond »

Lanthis wrote:If the trees were permanent, then yes. Like I said, have 2 heroes rape treant, kill spawn waves, keep spawns before the new fortification, and command the besieged lane around the blockade.
And you don't think that's an awful lot to do for what is something very simple to set up?

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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#19 Post by coramoor2 »

An ESD would be quite destructive to the wall, removing a treant every shot. pick the right ones (the newest and highest hp treants), and harass the tree a little bit and the wall should fall in about the amount of time it took to set up. also, golems are quite effective against it, as is not letting the tree alone long enough to set it up. yes, one of the counters to it is simply paying attention to what the enemy is doing, much like the counter to having siege gens set up by your base or towering arthas. the set-up time is about 4-5 treant casts before it becomes a viable wall, plenty of time to start ESDing them and picking on the tree. yes, he can heal himself by eating a tree, but that makes his movement predictable when his hp gets low, as well as being vulnerable to abilities that destroy trees. got an inf? mine the nearest tree cluster, AoO the tree and run away, popping your mines and laugh as he walks into the explosion, denying him the heal and probably killing him on top of it. the tree hero is surprisingly flimsy if you attack him right. yes, solo is not the way to kill the tree, but any 2 heroes should be able to fight him off without spells. he's really designed as a support hero, and is quite vulnerable when alone.

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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#20 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

ESD?

Treant is really good even alone, due to his numerous tanking abilities, which are often overlooked. I still would like to test out a straight, charge-in tank Fugly one of these days, maxing rebirth and treants prolly.

I don't get how Treant is even moderately ineffective alone. Now Emberwraith, well...
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#21 Post by coramoor2 »

tanking abilities? you make it sound like he has amazing damage reduction or large hp. sure hes not a finesse melee hero, but hes a support hero, not a tank. start hitting him and he does go down fast, as he doesn't have a damage reduction skill like every tank i can think (bp has an armor buff, RK has a shield, tyrant has a shield, rue has guards that absorb dmg, scarab has his armor, gravel has an armor buff, bane has his acid sheath).

Maybe we're using different definitions of tank? i consider a tank someone that can handle a large group of standard creeps attacking him by about lvl 15 or 20 without getting items or having insane crystal resources. The tree can't take a crowd hitting him. now, with taunting treant he can handle a crowd, but its because thats crowd control and not tanking. He only has one tanking ability, and thats his innate heal that is rather minor and can be a pain to keep finding trees while a crowd is wailing on you.

rebirth is not a tank skill, its really an anti-aoe skill for the creep wave or an escape mechanism for the tree. first, you have to be in a position to die for rebirth to activate, and you can't move around once it does. second, you come back severely wounded and with no mana, so now you have at most half your hp bar in order to escape the deadly position you are in. now, if you happened to be making a run back to your base, maybe that extra hp will let you make it, because once you come out of rebirth, the tree's only real option is to run away. speaking of which, i would like to see the exploding taunting treant talent removed and in place get a rebirth talent that either doubles the hp you come back with (maybe just a chance to get double) or gives mana for your second life. could even make it a static amount of mana, 50 each point.

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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#22 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

but its because thats crowd control and not tanking.
This is what I meant to say I guess. Not use to the term "crowd control". Though you have to admit, in many ways, that's what a tank does. I suppose the two can overlap?

With some armor, I would say Treant can tank quite well.
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#23 Post by coramoor2 »

with some armor, just about any hero can tank quite well. a few need an orb of life too, but only a few. tree is a melee support hero, much like how the AC is a ranged support hero. they support slightly differently, but they both manipulate enemy creep positions (gale/entangle and taunting treant), can disable channelers without much problem (entangling treant and gale), can save allies from certain death (rebirth and heal), and are generally incapable of killing enemy heroes on their own, though they are excellent at taking advantage of a mistake by an enemy, but the enemy has to make a mistake for them to be strong enough to get a kill.

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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#24 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

A few points:

A) The Elder Treant is NOT bad at killing enemy heros alone. I don't know how you play him, but I generally stack attack dmg, and this combined with a near 6 sec stun (entangle), means you can dish out a hell of alot of dmg.

B) No, not every hero can tank with a little added armor. My point was that if you equipped Treant and say....Bane with a +2 Knight's, and spent your skills in tanking (Rebirth)/(Acid Shealth), Treant would fair quite well. No, Treant is not a straight out tank, understood, but to disregard him completely is rather premature. He has several (as I have stated before) tankish spells. And Rebirth is a VERY good tanking spell.

C) Treant has pretty high str gain, and comparable with most other tanks. You act as though he is somehow alot weaker. :?

D) I agree 100% with this:
tree is a melee support hero,
....But that doesn't mean he can't fit into other categories.
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Re: Taunting Treant Wall

#25 Post by aegir ravenking »

Then the question becomes how many heroes can't fit into more then one roll?

Only one comes to mind off the top of my head(DW), but still late game many people stack strength/tank gear for vengeance nuking.
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