Defiler OP

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Defiler OP

#1 Post by Cokemonkey11 »

Okay I love the defiler, but I didn't realize how overpowered he was until I had to play against him when someone good was in control.

Defiler can 1-hit the harpy. Enough said. Making a hero killer get an orb of life is NOT fair, even if she is flying.
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Re: Defiler OP

#2 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

Yup, agreed.

I assume you go life drain/ult/pestil=lolz?

I find massing str on him to be utterly ridiculous, almost like a corrupted, twisted version of a str DW in a way, rather unfair. :evil:
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Re: Defiler OP

#3 Post by Elle-Belle »

If you've done nothing but stack Int. all game, by the time you've reached 27 you can damn well one shot almost anything you want.. and if Pestilence doesn't kill the target then Devouring Plague will if it doesn't make it to a Fountain, first. Even if he wants to secure a kill, he can.. his ms is rather up-there and the range of some of his spells (Devouring Plague in general) are just huge. As for creep waves, one swing of Pestilence in the later levels will wipe out an entire group in a matter of seconds. :?

I'm not entirely sure what might be planned for Defiler, but in my opinion..

For Pestilence:
- Lower the Int. Modifier
- OR -
- Lower the Base Damage
For Devouring Plague
- Decrease the no. of Drains
- OR -
- Lower the Duration of Levels 3 to 6 (or even give them all a single duration and increase the % of the Drain per level OR leave the % as is, but Increase Duration via Int. Modifier)
- OR -
- Increase the Cooldown (although this would be the least helpful in any case)

As for Frailty, I'm not too sure. There's nothing awfully strong about it, but it does secure a fast kill mid-late game with the current damage of Pestilence and Devouring Plague.

I do have to agree with Coke, but even in the hands of someone less experienced with the game, the power of Pestilence and Devouring Plague is overwhelming to most Heroes (especially that of Harpy, Infiltrator, or anything with a low health count).

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Re: Defiler OP

#4 Post by Cokemonkey11 »

Elle-Belle wrote: I do have to agree with Coke, but even in the hands of someone less experienced with the game, the power of Pestilence and Devouring Plague is overwhelming to most Heroes (especially that of Harpy, Infiltrator, or anything with a low health count).
Yea that just makes it worse. The guy that was raping me this morning with defiler had 4 rings + 2 equips (all int) and not a single one upgraded.
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Re: Defiler OP

#5 Post by Kalrithus »

Defiler may indeed be very strong against many heroes, especially low hp heroes early on, later on heavy hp heroes are also countered by devouring plague if the player is lazy.
Defiler can 1-hit the harpy. Enough said. Making a hero killer get an orb of life is NOT fair, even if she is flying.
This is a fallacy hero killers get orbs of life all the time to help extend their life in the field, doing either that or carrying an anti-magic pot is certainly not asking too much of a hero killer if they are going against any nuker. Harpy is intentionally weak in terms of hp and there are alot of nukes that do equal or greater single target damage than pestilence.
I find massing str on him to be utterly ridiculous, almost like a corrupted, twisted version of a str DW in a way, rather unfair. :evil:
Firstly if you're massing str on defiler you missing out on a great deal of his potential, but if you are attempting to make him a psuedo-tank I can understand it. Also str building for DW actually has merit as it increases the max damage of vengeance significantly and provides for a larger window in which to use it before potentially dying.

In closing defiler is a very vulnerable hero who will be pked easily by anyone half decent even with a solid player at the controls unless precautions are taken. Dispel wands counter his plague and ultimate (and you can normally predict when each will be used), his low hp makes him susceptible to nuking and ganking and this is encouraged because you do not want a drawn out battle with defiler because that allows him more DPs and more nukes with which to whittle your defenses down. It really isn't too much to ask that you play smarter or adapt your tactics when you will benefit from it.

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Re: Defiler OP

#6 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

In closing defiler is a very vulnerable hero who will be pked easily by anyone half decent even with a solid player at the controls unless precautions are taken.
but if you are attempting to make him a psuedo-tank I can understand it.
Well, yea, I don't always do this. But seeing as how Pk'ers can really eat the Defiler if hes not careful or played by a noob, this strat works exceptionally well.
This is a fallacy hero killers get orbs of life all the time to help extend their life in the field
But that's the point, they shouldn't have to do that just to stay alive. Nor should someone have to invest 6 points into a dispell either just to counter him.
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Re: Defiler OP

#7 Post by Lanthis »

The entire premise of this thread is that the defiler can pop off 3 spells (ult/pest/dev, correct?) and kill the harpy in "1 hit". Any decent harpy would have the defiler stunned after the first spell and dead by the time the stun is up.

Assuming you meant full health harpy here. If you mean a damaged harpy, should it be surprising when someone walks up and dumps an Ult and 2 other spells and kills you? That's like saying DW is OP for Vengeance + Nuke kill.

I think what probably most accurately describes what you're feeling is that Delifer is annoying and fearsome to play against when wielded by someone with half a brain. The same way I feel about Infiltrator.
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Re: Defiler OP

#8 Post by Empyrean »

Dark_Nemesis wrote:Nor should someone have to invest 6 points into a dispell either just to counter him.
i don't see a problem with this. its basically the reason for there being dispels. counter-building one of the things that keeps ppl from doing the same thing every single game - it's an attempt to encourage dynamic gameplay, which is one of the good things about eota.

problem with defiler is the problem with dispellable abilities and the whole dispel system - hes just more affected than most chars. iirc yak hasn't done anything with the defiler yet cuz hes going to overhaul the entire dispel thing in a coming version...

imo harpy should be a great counter to the defiler. as Lanthis said, as a flyer she can get to him behind enemy lines, preferably without his seeing her; with feedback she can disable him if he tries to cast anything; and then she can finish him quickly with her choice of pk abilities.

defiler seems op sometimes, but he's quite crippled if facing someone good with dispels. personally though i agree that the rate and distance at which he can cast plague seems a bit too overwhelming... trouble is that it would be considerably less worthwhile against anyone with dispel wands if it wasn't that way

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Re: Defiler OP

#9 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

it's an attempt to encourage dynamic gameplay, which is one of the good things about eota.
I don't think part of the dynamic play in EotA includes outfitting Pk'ers with tanking gear for the sole purpose of staying alive.
problem with defiler is the problem with dispellable abilities and the whole dispel system
While I agree with you that at a glance, this would seem right, I have yet to see a person complain even once about dryad dispelling everything, or any other hero for that matter. And a good Defiler will learn to cast something, then wait, instead of slamming everything on a hero at once only to have it totally removed seconds later. It's not terribly hard to counter a heavy dispeller with Defiler. Just takes a bit more skill. :| :wink:
imo harpy should be a great counter to the defiler. as Lanthis said, as a flyer she can get to him behind enemy lines, preferably without his seeing her; with feedback she can disable him if he tries to cast anything; and then she can finish him quickly with her choice of pk abilities.
Harpy is a P'ker, and good against most heroes, if that's what you mean, but looking deeper:

Harpy has a really low str gain (perhaps the lowest?). Defiler has his ultimate which steals 45 str at lvl 4, that's exactly 900 HP if I'm correct. My bet is that Harp would then be reduced to 300 (I'm guessing shes got 1200 max) leaving Pestil to do a minimum of 300 hundred dmg to ensure a kill. At lvl 45, that's a piece of cake, even without added int. Harp is in serious trouble then. Yes, Harp has swoop and backlash, but the the sheer amount of dmg the Defiler can enflict within a matter of seconds is devastating on most hereos, and deadly on Harp. She simply can't cope with that having so little HP.

In the replays/games I've participated in, I have repeatedly seen a single Defiler chase away several enemy heroes, ones such as TC equipped with dispells and potent heals, and the players on the opposing side were pro (Alien and Kevin I seem to remember). When this happens, you know he's seriously OP.

To be democratic, maybe someone should attach a poll? :)
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Re: Defiler OP

#10 Post by Empyrean »

i'm just saying, i also have problems with it, but i dont think it's "seriously op".
defiler is a bitch to fight against, but he's not half as bad as pre-nerfed eido. some immediate tinkering would be nice, but it's not particularly necessary if Yak intends on getting ver d out anytime soon <_<
Dark_Nemesis wrote:I don't think part of the dynamic play in EotA includes outfitting Pk'ers with tanking gear for the sole purpose of staying alive
that's not what i was referring to.
Dark_Nemesis wrote:I have yet to see a person complain even once about dryad dispelling everything, or any other hero for that matter.
that's because a lot of people seem to be of the opinion that one shouldn't "have to invest 6 points into a dispell either just to counter him."
when it does happen though, many people playing defiler or bp start complaining pretty quickly.
i am all for altering your usual build according to the enemy's lineup.
Dark_Nemesis wrote:Harp is in serious trouble then.
most of the time this happens if the harpy is stupid and flying around in front of the defiler's face. she has two things going for her to help prevent this: flying and feedback. she's simply not supposed to get caught.
of course low hp heroes have to steer clear of high-damage pk'ers and esp ranged casters. I'd be just as worried about getting caught by a similarly leveled aero, and of course dw could 1-hit her with vengeance by that time.

and a harpy with 1200 hp when defiler has lvl 4 ult would be quite underlvld, not that it makes too much of a difference with her str gain...

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Re: Defiler OP

#11 Post by Kalrithus »

I especially like using joram against defiler, take an hp pot along (75g) an anti-magic pot along(120g) and you're almost guaranteed a pk against defiler unless you're really bad or the defiler is tower hugging. I also like to bring along dispel wands to counter his ultimate as it seems anti-magic normally won't remove it. Its a small amount of gold to pay for the pk that will net you gold and your whole team crystal, along with the + xp for you and the - xp for defiler due to death downtime.

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Re: Defiler OP

#12 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

At higher lvls, you are totally right. But I find Joram to suffer earlier on, he's one of those late gamer heros. My take.

Too, I've found that the Defiler actually isn't too impressive at higher ranks, it's surviving the first 25 or so that really makes him ridiculous.
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Re: Defiler OP

#13 Post by Discombobulator »

Cokemonkey11 wrote:Okay I love the defiler, but I didn't realize how overpowered he was until I had to play against him when someone good was in control.

Defiler can 1-hit the harpy. Enough said. Making a hero killer get an orb of life is NOT fair, even if she is flying.
NOT fair? How 'bout you be NOT STUPID? Harpy's low HP is meant to be a weakness. If getting an orb of life is all it takes to counter the Defiler, you should be lucky, not whining.

Also, you're completely forgetting that there are 999 ways of dispelling in EotA. Defiler's useless against dispell.

Please, instead of trolling these forums, get some skill, and manner up.
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Re: Defiler OP

#14 Post by Kalrithus »

Dark... I'm talking about within the 15 levels that joram can waste defiler with ease, maybe it's different with your agility build but I have no trouble doing so.

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Re: Defiler OP

#15 Post by Cokemonkey11 »

Discombobulator wrote:
Cokemonkey11 wrote:Okay I love the defiler, but I didn't realize how overpowered he was until I had to play against him when someone good was in control.

Defiler can 1-hit the harpy. Enough said. Making a hero killer get an orb of life is NOT fair, even if she is flying.
NOT fair? How 'bout you be NOT STUPID? Harpy's low HP is meant to be a weakness. If getting an orb of life is all it takes to counter the Defiler, you should be lucky, not whining.

Also, you're completely forgetting that there are 999 ways of dispelling in EotA. Defiler's useless against dispell.

Please, instead of trolling these forums, get some skill, and manner up.
This thread isn't about counter necessity while playing harpy, it's about balance. And let me know where you see me whining.

Also, lol'd when you mentioned me trolling forums and exhibiting poor manners.
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Re: Defiler OP

#16 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

This thread isn't about counter necessity while playing harpy, it's about balance. And let me know where you see me whining.

Also, lol'd when you mentioned me trolling forums and exhibiting poor manners.
I lol'd too.
Please, instead of trolling these forums, get some skill, and manner up.
LOL. At least provide examples. Though you won't find any. I have yet to see Coke even bold anything.
Dark... I'm talking about within the 15 levels that joram can waste defiler with ease, maybe it's different with your agility build but I have no trouble doing so.
Is there another way of wasting Defiler without Agil/Dmg? You could go Int, but your losing a hell of alot of dmg and crit. I don't see how can waste Defiler without going Agil. And in my experience, I've found Defiler to be a nasty opponent to just about any hero. I very well may be my playstyle, and I don't mean to criticize yours.
I especially like using joram against defiler, take an hp pot along (75g) an anti-magic pot along(120g) and you're almost guaranteed a pk against defiler unless you're really bad or the defiler is tower hugging.
[edit] I forgot about this. If that's the case, then I can totally see where you are coming from Kalrithus. I am used to simply charging in, maybe armed with a health pot if I managed to run by the Arcane Shop beforehand. I never buy anti-magic pots. Potions for me mainly include mana regens and heals, beyond that, I don't find much use for them. The summons are another story though...
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Re: Defiler OP

#17 Post by Reaper »

Pestilence and totems are two great skills that benefit from an int build. His bouncing attack is nice but I doubt a build around that is more effective.
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Re: Defiler OP

#18 Post by DarnYak »

Reaper wrote:Pestilence and totems are two great skills that benefit from an int build. His bouncing attack is nice but I doubt a build around that is more effective.
We're not talking about the defiler/dread shaman archon.

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Re: Defiler OP

#19 Post by Reaper »

Oh wait I'm retarded. I still kind of had a point
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Re: Defiler OP

#20 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

An int build shammy is a huge waste imo. Much, much, better to go dmg.

And I don't even bother with bouncing attack, the crystal is better spent elsewhere.

Sorry for the derailment.
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Re: Defiler OP

#21 Post by Reaper »

DarnYak wrote:
Reaper wrote:Pestilence and totems are two great skills that benefit from an int build. His bouncing attack is nice but I doubt a build around that is more effective.
We're not talking about the defiler/dread shaman archon.

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Although you should combine them into an uber-douche
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Re: Defiler OP

#22 Post by Kalrithus »

Sounds like a evil SC2 hero O.o

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Re: Defiler OP

#23 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

After playing as Defiler numerous times online the other day, I have some new views about his skills.

Plague is powerful but I wouldn't consider OP. Maybe a slight decrease on the mana lost and a nerf to the duration ought to do it.

Pestilence is perfect atm.

Ult is good, but situational.

Blight is exceptional, perhaps a little too strong.

Exhaustion is exceptional, about right imo.

And to add onto what Kalrithus was saying. Swashy is quite good against Defiler (at least with his build). Though when we dueled it was, for more the part, a truce. I believe we killed each other a couple of times, fairly even imo. And my pseudo-tank build wasn't exactly the norm. And finally, Kalrithus plays a wicked-ass Swashy.
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Re: Defiler OP

#24 Post by Discombobulator »

The talent for mana from blight is OP IMO.
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Re: Defiler OP

#25 Post by Dark_Nemesis »

Yea, that's what I meant.

Though technically you can cast the ability outside of the towers range while your adds rape the buildings. Yes, it's channeling, but meh....?

I devastated a keep the other day using a rank 2 blight and a decent push.
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