Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

An Aeon of Strife map for Warcraft 3
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 Post subject: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 16th, 2008, 6:54 am 
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Is Demongod still hear? haven't read anything from him lately. I was overviewing some of the older threads and was wondering. Man is it just me or does that guy always seem like he has something up his butt? Anyway, I was reading through the part were he was flaming Inf and saying she is countered by a 500g item. Eh, don't think thats entirely true, granted, she is reduced if your enemy has a invis seeing item, but not completly. First, she has her mines, which can wipe almost anthing, provided they're not seen. Second, she has her ult, which no hero or item can counter. Third, AoO is still good even without blitz (bet you didnt know that one). The part where Inf starts to suck is when shes up against tanks teamed with heroes with invis-seeing spells. Example: Fenris/Bane, granted, both of these heroes could take Inf by themselves, but really pwn when teamed up against her. Also, you don't need amulet, wards, or scrolls to counter her. Orb, Knights, or Plate will do fine. Inf is good against about 50% of all the heros in Eota, heres how I figured that,

Total of 18 heros,

10 Creep
8 UD

6 of those are tanks (Rue, Nephillium, Ascendant, Fenris, Treant, Bane).
4 of those are invis-seeing spell heroes--and tanks (Fenris, Rue?, Nephillium, Treant) double pwnage there :(
3 of those can almost one cast her (Ardin, Shrillwing, Icespinner).
Thats 9 that can take her and...
9 she has a shot at (Gravel, Incarnation, Defiler, High Oracle, Shaman, AM, Scarab?, Crusader, Emberwraith).
9/18
=50%

So as you can see she isn't op! not even close. Also, even if you did have amulet or something for 1 of the 9, it woudln't do much good becuase none of them could really touch her anyway, except maybe Scarab.

point of contention: Inf is not countered by amulets or other invis seeing items, she countered by high armor/hp heroes or heroes with invis-seeing spells AND high hp (i.e. tanks and a few DPS).

However, while im on the subject of items there are two that either need to be removed or nerfed badly. This items are the scroll of neutralization and the wand of negatation. Earlier I said that amulet doen't completly ruin Inf, It doesn't, it just makes her visible like every other hero, and its 500g not 160g. Its one thing if it makes you visible, its another to completly wipe a hero with a 160g item. Could you imagine Alexander with a dozen of those things? he'd be impossible to kill, also think of what it does to dot heros like Defiler or IS (which we all know and love). It completly dismantles them. I was playing a game few days ago and had some of those wands with SB. IS and treant were against me...and they couldn't touch me!...if IS put BF or IL on me I simply removed it for a retarded 160g. Actually its more like 50g (3). Something needs to be done, this isnt right, its a gay and cheap way to win (against heros anyway).


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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 16th, 2008, 8:33 am 
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Quote:
she is reduced if your enemy has a invis seeing item, but not completly. First, she has her mines, which can wipe almost anthing, provided they're not seen.


Mines are way easier to detect than the Inf herself as they are static and you see her laying mines most of the time.

Quote:
Second, she has her ult, which no hero or item can counter.


But teleport + workers counter it most of the time.

Quote:
Third, AoO is still good even without blitz (bet you didnt know that one)


How should we after I posted it at least twice in said thread???

Quote:
The part where Inf starts to suck is when shes up against tanks teamed with heroes with invis-seeing spells. Example: Fenris/Bane, granted, both of these heroes could take Inf by themselves, but really pwn when teamed up against her.


2vs1 generally tends to pwn. RK + Aero even pwn more than just a single hero.

Quote:
bla


Treant has invis detection now? He is a tank? Fenris is a tank x_X ( Oh right these old school Lunge players use str ),

Right, Gravel, Scarab and Emer are no tanks. Str as main attribute, armor increasing + str based skill, damage decreasing + self heal, evasion and hp regen.

"One Casting" Inf is quite hard if her AoO instantkills you. (IS for example)

Ofc you could just start with the fact, that all flying heroes have a great advantage over Inf, but i guess that would be too easy for you.

Also the fact that you treat her like AoO ist a must have, is the largest error in your post. But with 1k damage per mine there is no need to go anywhere near an enemy hero and risk your life.

point of contention: You failed again as Inf's strength increases with player skill, especially when using explosives.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 16th, 2008, 10:26 am 
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First, I don't have anything against you Dek, but your ideals on INf are clearly wrong...

1.) Who remembers the location of all the mines?...and no, no one sees her most of the time.

2.) Notice I said no HERO or ITEM...absolutly no mention of workers, also why not just kill the peon?

3.) Maybe you should reword this or something...

4.) Usually, thats why I said they could take her also 1v1.

5.) Hmm, must be thinking of something else, anyway...yes Fenny can off tank and easily rape INf.

6.) Granted they're STr, never said they weren't...but Gravel and Ember against INf? Rock and Pyro would be useless. Scarab might have a chance if he gets off a
sleep...notice I put a :?: after his name.

7.) Ice lance hits for 600 with only Evo/Robes, FS 1000, get Orb of health+webs, amulet (maybe)=pwned.

8.) Umm, didn't I mention Ascend and Hag could gank INf? really, :roll:

9.) I said blitz isn't a "must have" not AoO, stop twisting my words and learn to read please. And yes, mines will wipe ALMOST anything, if they're not seen.

10.) Point of contention: you failed to read my post completly...


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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 16th, 2008, 1:48 pm 
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I think my hundret inhouse games against humans give me a better idea of anything you think to know from your games against the AI.


1) Some people have a attention span of over 1 minute. If they dont see you laying mines, you are not in combat and thus end up 20 levels behind. Ofc there are some locations on cliffs, but restricting yourself to a single spot will make you useless, too.
Note: Not 100% of your mines are "visible", but the sake of exp some better are. As most players dont use detection on them but rather avoid them, they are still useful against other heroes or spawns. The hero killing mines will propably be a bit hidden, but that just proves my point of being outside of the enemys range while killing them.

2) Notice I didnt said HERO or ITEM. Some people micro their workers ( very few, I do ).

3) Read the thread again, i posted there you dont need blitz to make good use of AoO. Ofc with your very limited attention spawn ( see 1) if you forgot already ) I dont wonder you didnt remember.

4) Tanks just need some more AoO love or you go for explosives, they are missing the damage output to really hurt Inf.

5) Overconfident Fenny players like you are the perfect victims to lure into explosives.

6) Scarab should be able to survive Inf as he has a good amount of hp, can disable her, only has to fear her AoO and can heal himself. He can deal 30% of her hp as damage with a single nuke. Rockslide is one of your favored one hit kills, im suprised you dont know that. So the damage cant be that low. Ember has a 10 second hold and good hp regeneration, even spawns should deal some damage in that time. Oh, I forgot, you think spawns are no threat because you always run around with your lvl 60 hero with 6 +5 items, I apologize.

7) And Inf cant get an HP Orb or dispel if IS uses Amu and HP orb? Ofc a hero with 6 +5 items has always better chances against a hero without. Inf could also just take a little consumeable called anti magic potion to survive for the second AoO if it is needed.

8) You did mention them as Tank / High damage types, but leaving out the fact that they are flying and her skills cant be used on them without special preparations are the real fact why they are dangerous. Think about it like your guide, you write one little thing but leave out the important stuff.

9) Your whole post is about AoO as you dont need Blitz if you dont have AoO, ergo your post is about AoO as you just said yourself.

10) Get some real experience before you make another post in this forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 16th, 2008, 2:19 pm 
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Let me see if I can address what you've said, Seig.

1) I sure as hell remember where the mines are, or at least where the Inf likes to lay them, after I get blown up by a minefield. Granted, I may miss one or two, but the big areas are covered.

2)Yes, no HERO or ITEM can counter her ult. But last I checked, there are other things in the game than HEROs or ITEMs. I mean no offense here, but you seem way too item-centric for an EotA player. There are other options open to you: Workers, as mentioned before.

3)He meant that he said that AoO is good even without Blitz; he said that twice. Sarcasm FTW.

4) She shouldn't have an easy time against every hero just because of Blitz; she should have some sort of 'natural counter' like Fenny. I mean, come on, a hero who's good against everyone? Strikes me as a little overpowered.

5) Fenris. . .CAN wipe Inf out, but not really Off-tank (Interesting choice of words) if he's got their attention.

6) Rock is useless? Just pay attention to where the Inf goes invisible. Yes, it's useless against an already-invisible Inf, not so much against the Inf that goes invis in your line of sight.

7) The spider is also pretty fragile. AoO can hurt pretty bad, or at least from my experience with him.

8) Yea. . .you didn't say it, but they are listed.

9)You mention AoO as much as you mention all of the other abilities. It seems kinda like you praise it. . ."AoO is good even without Blitz." As for the mines, as I said earlier, you tend to notice them quick after you get blown up a few times. :P

10)Seems to me like an assassin would, naturally, be countered by someone who can take a helluva lotta hits. I would expect that losing invisibility, for the sake of balance, would either gimp her damage a lot (Which it does, if the other player is smart and doesn't leave himself open for AoO) or force her to retreat.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 16th, 2008, 4:15 pm 
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1.) I've played dozens of games against human players, so in that respect my opinion would be just as worthy as yours.

2.) Most people don't keep track of all the mines, granted some, but not all. You said "hero killing mines" right? and I asume that you've got hero kills some of the time using mines in your 'hundret' games. So if your getting hero kills then they must NOT keep track of all of them or they wouldnt have died, right? :roll: Also, 20 lvls behind is ridiculous, get your facts strait please, MAYBE 10.
Note: INf gains several lvls anyway after wiping a push, so lvling shouldnt be that much of a problem.

3.) Whats your point? we both posted that...just forget it. Also, you wrote ist, which looks like isn't.

4.) First, you probably don't get her AGi too high right? spending all your gold on consums, so your AoO isnt going to hit nearlly as hard. Second, no tank (or hero) is just going to let you repitedly hit them with AoO without doing dmg back. Third, most (if not all) tanks have a alot of armor and hp. (in case you didn't know high armor greatly reduces physical attacks...AoO and mines are physical). Team health orb up with knights and AoO becomes deeply nerfed. Treant can rape INf, I've done it numerous times (on MP) and Bane also has a good shot, let me tell you why...
Grasping Tree: 5.75sec stun and around 400dmg (without int). So while shes stunned for almost 6sec you simply bet on her and she ends up taking 1000dmg (you can easly dish out 100dmg a sec while shes stunned). If she tries another AoO, stun her again and finish the job, easy rape. Treant also has rebirth and eat tree, both bad news for INf. (taunting could help too along with pixies).
Note: get Treant some heavy attack and he'll easly double his dmg output, resulting in a even quicker rape.
Bane...
Dragon Fear: 2sec stun, 40%? (correct me if im wrong).
Charge: 3sec stun
Caustic breath: 600? could be higher or lower (a little) depending on your STr.
Acid Sheath: 50dmg per sec.
(encouragement could help too)

5.) Doesn't search see mines? if so your "lure" would majorly fail, and no one is that stupid to follow you like that. Also, its very hard to time the mines right without killing your own hero.

6.) Your right, they're not a threat at lvl 60 with 6-5 items. But they certinly are at lvl 35 with even 2-3.

7.) She can, never said she couldnt. But you or most people probably wouldnt want to 'waste' gold on items. Also, cant enemy heros buy anti-magic items?

8.) Leave out most and say little? look at my post again, I didnt mention recharge diong like 50dmg, yet the world still goes on. :D

9.) My post was about many things, AoO, mines, the hero, wards,...but whatever.

10.) I wont even go they're...

Note: The flaming isnt need dude...I dont hate you...


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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 16th, 2008, 6:08 pm 
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Seig_2 wrote:
Note: The flaming isnt need dude...I dont hate you...

Yes, but we hate you. At least I do.


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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 16th, 2008, 6:22 pm 
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I don't....should I send over some expert flamers who have been subdued due to recent increase of mods on another forum...they'd enjoy this and I'm gonna try to get them to go after everyone...also a wc3 player there thats a flamer on the side who'd probably insult this map on the side though...despite never playing it....maybe....

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 16th, 2008, 6:24 pm 
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ToXiK wrote:
Seig_2 wrote:
Note: The flaming isnt need dude...I dont hate you...

Yes, but we hate you. At least I do.


You are such a faggot...


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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 16th, 2008, 11:38 pm 
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I don't think Yak is around/has better things to do (hopefully) then work on this so, perhaps we should consider just having fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 17th, 2008, 12:18 pm 
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You don't put down the fact that Dryad and Shaman have an invisible seeing spell. Dryad's being one of the best if the infiltrator isn't up to par.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 17th, 2008, 12:24 pm 
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Hmm, forgot about shammy and dryad, never play them, shammys no fun and drayads gale is bugged or something, I donno, maybe not any more Ill have to check it out.

Ill add that to the list, even though INf could gank both of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 17th, 2008, 2:07 pm 
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No time for a large answer:

If you cant time your mines to explode shortly after you blinked away, go and play some other hero.
Heroes need to follow you if they want to kill you, maybe you didnt know that.

Inf can use blitz for faster move and no collision and blink to escape, if you try to kill your enemys in melee, you are going to die ofc. But thats what Inf is all about: evasion, tricking and most important the timing.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 17th, 2008, 4:17 pm 
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I can probably time them right, you also, but im talking about players not fimilar with her or her bomb delay. Even skilled players arent perfect in timing. Granted, they could probably set it up right most of the time, but it is still a little tricky unless you have alot of mines. Also, when following INf you have to ask yourself is it worth dying for? not everyone will persue her to their death...just my thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 17th, 2008, 10:02 pm 
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Pursue her to her death? Why, when I can stun / slow her and then move to her? Yggdrasil's Grasping Treant, Fenny's Hamstring, Plight's Swoop (IIRC), and more (Those're off the top of my head) all slow her down. So, yes, she could detonate those mines and kill me -- But she'd be getting herself, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 12:41 am 
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I was simply going off of what dek said about hereos being "lured" into mines. granted, it might work on a few, but not the ones with stuns or slows or ones that play smart. Fenny is a good example, lunge has a short enough cool down that you could probably get two hits in and finish Inf easily. its kinda hard for Inf to "lure" someone when shes dead.


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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 6:51 am 
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It seems your fingers not only did your typing, but did your thinking too. Have you considered suing your brain for non-support? Why is it that the people with the smallest minds always have the biggest mouths? Well, you're certainly thoughtless; I just wish that you were keyboard-less, too. I am reminded of something relevant that Benjamin Disraeli said: "He was distinguished for ignorance - for he had only one idea and that was wrong."

If that post was intended as a joke, you forgot to include the punch line. You have the warm personal charm of a millipede and about as much class as a bucket of mucous lodged on top of a dumpster in a Blue Light district of New Jersey. Maybe you wouldn't come across as such a jellyfish-sucking mental midget if your father didn't screw a plant and raised a blooming idiot; if your weren't so fat that a "Place Your Billboard Ad Here" is printed on each of your butt cheeks, or if you weren't uglier than the north-facing end of a south-bound mule. No, come to think of it, you would.

In future, wake up the dozy peglegged hamster operating that wheel-powered brain of yours before you start typing.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 12:22 pm 
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Seig_2 wrote:
I was simply going off of what dek said about hereos being "lured" into mines. granted, it might work on a few, but not the ones with stuns or slows or ones that play smart. Fenny is a good example, lunge has a short enough cool down that you could probably get two hits in and finish Inf easily. its kinda hard for Inf to "lure" someone when shes dead.


Well if fenny is good then infil just has to get knights armor which would negate lunge.

OWNED BY YOUR OWN EXAMPLES BITCH.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 3:05 pm 
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It would reduce it not "negate" it. You of all people should know that but apparently not.

Thats what I said in my examples all along. Also, I said with health orb, which you also failed to mention. 700hp is going to help alot more than 60 armor and 100hp.

caught with your dick in the bear...


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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 3:37 pm 
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Jamn you should keep your dick out of bears.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 4:30 pm 
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Seig, no one likes or even cares about your stupid posts, please spend time doing something we are not forced to hear about, you're an idiot, die, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 8:12 pm 
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Seig_2 wrote:
It would reduce it not "negate" it. You of all people should know that but apparently not.

Thats what I said in my examples all along. Also, I said with health orb, which you also failed to mention. 700hp is going to help alot more than 60 armor and 100hp.

caught with your dick in the bear...



Since lunge is physical, the armor would heavily reduce the damage, and you of all people should know that since you bitch how its a counter to infil, but apparently not.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 19th, 2008, 2:17 am 
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This is more of a math perspective argument...The question is, will 60 armor on infiltrator reduce damage by more than 700? This of course requires knowledge on how much damage the lunge is doing, and just how much dmg reduct she has after +60 armor...plus count in the whole extra life regen thing. Now, I say you just get both for even better effectiveness but I see no compromises. Now, is it often that on a hero like infil +60 armor will reduce an average lunge by 700 damage? Don't forget the diminishing gains sustem that as armor goes up, armor-to-dmg reduct goes down. In this case I doubt lunge is strong enough where that armor is gonna reduce it by 700, to equal the extra damage buffer from life orb.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 19th, 2008, 5:24 am 
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The armor system does not have diminishing gains. There are many good explanations on wc3 sites.

In regular WC3, each point of armor increases the unit's HP by 6% for physical attacks. In EotA it's like 2%, but still the same system.

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 Post subject: Re: Item considerations
PostPosted: January 19th, 2008, 5:56 am 
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I'll try to figure out how that works then, bit fuzzy brain right now...But is it a total of 700hp at the levels they're discussing, around thirties I believe...

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