Forsaken (Lich) compared to Aero?

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randomd00d
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Forsaken (Lich) compared to Aero?

#1 Post by randomd00d »

I have a question about how to use the Forsaken (Lich). It seems to be that he is a weak version of the Aeromancer.

Aero innate: AoE Speed boost that is very valuable for chasing, escaping, and just getting around. 60% is a lot.
Lich innate: Required to make all his spells work as well as anyone elses. Mana/lifegain does not come close to covering the mana cost.

score: Aero wins.


Aero hold: Solid dmg nuke and paralysis for up to 3.5 seconds.
Lich bind: Holds for 4 seconds. Doesnt channel, but no damage at all. Can summon worthless skeletons around target.

score: about the same. slight nod to Aero.


Aero tempest: decent channeled damage to big area. Very strong lategame for clearing waves of creeps.
Lich Rend: good early on ranged creeps for quick cash. So-so small AoE nuke with Mark active.

score: about the same. Slight nod to Aero in my opinion.


Aero mana rush: Gives a moderate amount of net mana to self, or transfers a goodly amount to another buddy. Requires a bit of investment mana.
Lich sacrifice: Gives a small amout of mana and tiny health amount only to self. Requires a nearby friendly creep to sacrifice.

score: Aero by a small margin.


The other skills are not similar.

Aero: tornado - alright.
Lich altar - decent aoe healing.

score: lich wins this one.


aero manastorm - strong.
lich avatar - strong.

score: bout the same. I like manastorm better since it combos with Hold and is more versatile.



So, lets say they are about the same so far for arguments sake.

Aero attack: Medium speed, ok damage, 600 range. Fast move speed. High AGI gain, low STR gain.
Lich: SLOW attack, ok damage, 500 range(?!?), SLOW friggin move speed. Low AGI gain, higher STR gain.


The question is: How come the lich is saddled with a slow movespeed and shorter ranged slow attack? Are there some advantages I am overlooking?

Perhaps I am overlooking the value of a particular skill?

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Re: Forsaken (Lich) compared to Aero?

#2 Post by Konnar »

I don't know if it got nerfed, but I remember the Rend leading to a lot of "HAHAHaa I got 400 gold and crystal" :P

It's a matter of preference I guess, because I find Lich to be slightly better, but maybe that's because I like "in your face" nukes.

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Re: Forsaken (Lich) compared to Aero?

#3 Post by Laser_Wolf »

I prefer the Aero to the Forsaken, but Forsaken can be just as strong of a hero as the Aeromancess, she just is stronger at certain things. I'm pretty sure that the dark alter can keep a push going by healing your team(not to sure on that one). Also you can die and come back to life with the ultimate in addition to other benefits. I think grave bind you can hold someone for a lot longer than 3.5 seconds. I have only played Forsaken a few times so I could be wrong about said abilities. Each hero has their distinct advantages and disadvantages though.
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Re: Forsaken (Lich) compared to Aero?

#4 Post by randomd00d »

I was inspired by these responses and wanted to get some actual numbers.

I came up with APPROXIMATELY this...


Lich Rend soul starts out at 120 +1.8INT damage! (25% less to surrounding targets if the Mark is on em) Thats pretty strong for level 1!

In comparison, Aero does 50 +.4Int x2 seconds.

Pestilence does 60ish.

Div Wiz does like 60 +1.4Int AoE.




However, the bad news is that as time progresses, the Lich loses this advantage.

At level 6(26 char), Rend hits for 195 +2.1INT or about 350 damage.

Aero hits for 117 per seconds times 3.5 for 450ish damage.

Div Wiz hits for 310 damage AoE.

I forgot what pestilence hits for, but its similar.



So it would be nice if the Lich Rend scaled a bit better with level. Since it is single target, I would expect it to dish out more damage, as compared with similar nukers.


Gravebind btw hits for 4.5 seconds max. It does NOT channel which is really nice, but doesnt do 450 damage either. It does create the skeletons around it which is marginally useful, as they dont really block the hero.




Also, the altar is pretty cool, but only heals units that are really close to the hero. Like within 200 range or so.

The ultimate is pretty strong, and

I love the lich concept, and really want to give props for the creation of a unique playstyle

I am not necessarily saying that the lich's ABILITIES are inferior, but that I wonder why poor lich is saddled with a slow attack speed, weak attack damage, AND 500 range, plus his move speed is rather slow. I'd understand if his abilities were demonstrably stronger.

Things seem to be well balanced, so this is why I am assuming I may be missing something..
For example, I thought arcane mistress sucked for a long time due to relatively weak nuke damage, slow attack speed, ok damage. THEN, I found out you can manually shoot Black Arrows at ethereal targets for a big +75% damage bonus since it counts as a "spellcast" when manually targeted.
It is NOT obvious at all, especially to a non dota-player (it was called orbwalking there, and avoided triggers when a hero is "attacked") but DOES pump the power level significantly... making her a potent hero-killer.

The ability that causes nearby troops to crit is promising. Once again though, at max level, its like a 40% chance of a 2.3x crit for 88 seconds.
Thats good and all, but an arcane archer can haste for 48% attack speed for 60 seconds without having to sacrifice a troop and use another skill in combo to make it work.
(Crit spell has much better AoE though)

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Re: Forsaken (Lich) compared to Aero?

#5 Post by Dekar »

I never casted Black Arrow manually and still owned everything with raw damage equipment. I surely hope you are completly wrong with that manually casting dealing 75%, because else she will need suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch a large nerf. :shock: And isnt it only 66% bonus damage for etheral? :P
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Re: Forsaken (Lich) compared to Aero?

#6 Post by aegir ravenking »

The two missing points about Rend are that while it starts out with a slighty higher then normal cooldown(20 seconds if I remember correctly), it drops to about something less then 10 seconds(I just remember you can get 2 AoE hits if you target a marked hero by level 5).

The second isn't as useful, but the mana cost don't increase much either(95 or 110 at six?), where as the other heros you are looking at 150-200, though the cost over time admittedly probably works out to about equal. It still means you can combo polar bears every 20 seconds and probably gain mana.

Again, with his hold, sure it don't do any damage, but I seem to remember the cooldown being lower, atleast a second(so you gain 1.5 seconds extra each cast) Also, is nice for removing mana from strength based heros early.

Honestly though, he seems to be a bit weak, but that is what he gets for being uber-bugged though most of the testing(permanent fear, 2k AoE heals, immortally)

And his only "fun" combo is the AoE damage IMO, I think Yak got tired of dealling with the poor bastard.

And yes, it has been way too long since I played.
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Re: Forsaken (Lich) compared to Aero?

#7 Post by randomd00d »

Dekar wrote:I never casted Black Arrow manually and still owned everything with raw damage equipment. I surely hope you are completly wrong with that manually casting dealing 75%, because else she will need suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch a large nerf. :shock: And isnt it only 66% bonus damage for etheral? :P
To be fair though, you could own with LOTS of heroes if you have enough damage equipment. Scarab can smite the living crap out of foes, Mortal Strike can hit pretty hard, Hold Person can definitely dish out some heavy damage, a charge/acid spray can hurt pretty bad.

I dont see the AM zap as particularly powerful, except in combo with another nuker.
The arrow thing changes this.

I dont know specifics, but I did notice that enemies took a lot more damage when ethereal and eating a black arrow. (only 1 level of black arrow is really needed) I figure that armor resistance is negated, but hero resistance is used instead. This could account for some gain, but I still think ethereal accounts for the majority of it.

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Re: Forsaken (Lich) compared to Aero?

#8 Post by Dekar »

Actually I just wondered about the -> manual cast of BA = 75% more damage <-
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Re: Forsaken (Lich) compared to Aero?

#9 Post by DarnYak »

Black arrow does nothing special with ethereal. It's not requireed to attack ethereal targets.

She has a second magic attack by default that you can't see. Its got slightly differnt stats/attack speed to adjust for the ethereal factor, but point is she can always use it vs ethereal.

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Re: Forsaken (Lich) compared to Aero?

#10 Post by randomd00d »

Ah! Thanks for the info.

And I thought I was being sooo clever. ;-)

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Re: Forsaken (Lich) compared to Aero?

#11 Post by DarnYak »

Re-reading this thread, I noticed two things I missed in my skimming.
So it would be nice if the Lich Rend scaled a bit better with level. Since it is single target, I would expect it to dish out more damage, as compared with similar nukers.
Most people fail to realize that aoe spells only do 75% damage to heroes, where single target spells should all be doing the full amount listed. So the 350 lich nuke vs 310 dw is actualy 350 vs 230
The two missing points about Rend are that while it starts out with a slighty higher then normal cooldown(20 seconds if I remember correctly), it drops to about something less then 10 seconds(I just remember you can get 2 AoE hits if you target a marked hero by level 5).
This is also a factor. It starts with really high damage due to long cooldown, but its damage over time should be going up quite a bit more.

Mark of the Reaper should probably be buffed though with a significant cooldown increase. All the bonus effects turned out to be crappy compared to what was envisioned.

DarnYak

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