The Grim Brigade

A place to talk about general WC3 and EotA related stuff.
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DarnYak
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The Grim Brigade

#1 Post by DarnYak »

So, how's every one feel so far? I'm probably going to release 1.11b for the weekend to fix a few bugs and tweak whatever sticks out. Obviously i'm concerned about balance issues, but in addition I'd like to get opinions on the following:

What heroes do you find the most/least fun?
How are things visually? Some skills ugly/too hard to see/etc.?
How about teamwork, are they working together well?
Similarly, how well rounded do you guys feel they are? Are they lacking anything major? Likewise, are they too good at some area(s)? Is there anything other teams can do that absolutely destroy them with no viable counter?

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#2 Post by Tehw00tz »

TWO releases in one week? Holy crap.

Defiler= most fun
Oracle= least fun

The visuals are good on all the skills.

The synergy between some of the undead heroes would be better if they had combo like the creep heroes/high elf heroes

The Defiler deffinately needs a nerf, you get him to 200 int and he can take out an entire wave with Pestilance. Emberwraith needs a nerf too, he is much too strong hp/regeneration-wise and he can backdoor bases with only his ultimate and his AoE spell (Forgot what it's called).
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#3 Post by Shadow.M4L »

I dont like the Visual style of Ambush and Crossbow...

Flank: It looks weird how the Hunts just appear in the middle of your screen.

Crossbow: Well this small little arrow seems to run a quarter feet over the ground. Maybe its just me but i dont like how this looks.


Maybe you can add the Hunts to the selection of the player whos controlling the Tactican. And maybe a Graphic or Channel so you know when there wont come any more Hunts.
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#4 Post by Konnar »

Whaaat ? haha, I'd say buff the defiler if anything. If you're talking about spawn control :

Pestilence takes out entire waves ONCE you get 200int, well that's pretty legitimate imo since it's half useless before it does 300+ damage at which point it is mediocre.

And if you compared to other aoe spells it's quite weak. I tried a cheat game with it maxed out with lots of +int and even with lots of damage its small range makes it hard to use. Well maybe it can serve as a nuke spammer to annoy heroes with his lifedrain combined. Have to try a real game to see

Apart from that the gfx are terrific, and I agree with the oracle being a bit boring, apart from the geyser which is quite funny when you cast it :)

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#5 Post by Tehw00tz »

Obviously you haven't tried blight.
I did a 1v1 on Candleburg against a computer Gravel and I destroyed him. Defiler's ultimate is insane, taking away that amount of strength for one minute.
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Re: The Grim Brigade

#6 Post by de-cross »

Most fun: Lich, Rue, Martyr, Defiler, Neph
Least fun:Emberwraith
Even leaster fun ( =D ):Garg
And Oracle in between :)

Visuals look good overall. But Garg'S Energy shield looks boring and Cautarize from the Firelord explosions should only appear when he relaly dispells something.

For me it's to early to say how well they fit together :O

They are lacking AoE's, the only good one is Pyrocasmn imo. All others are ultimates or need to much items too become good or are on the garg =P

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#7 Post by genrap993 »

I think the only thing you forgot to do was to give the the undead spawn towers the details of the units it spawns

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#8 Post by mianmian »

Incarnate anaimations are pretty uninspiring :P sry Yak but its true, and last I checked his AoE from his spell ( it the unit has Mark of the Reaper), well there isnt one.

I have to say Emberwraith is awsome, except he can only really pyroclasm+enkindle and use his Ult.

Neph is a sick PK hero, Rue also.

they really lack a lot of AoE (cept pyroclasm, and high end pestilence)

Hazard Slash looks awsome, Energy shield on garg looks kinda lame and the buff graphic wont disappear when the shield runs out.
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#9 Post by BLUEPOWERVAN »

Well, besides thinking new flank is a little overpowered, I found a particularly nasty bug with it, but I won't post on the forums

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#10 Post by mianmian »

Dosent that defeat the purpose of this forum? To post bugs so they get fixed (or not), at Yaks discretion
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#11 Post by Tehw00tz »

Atleast PM it to him.
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#12 Post by BustroQuick »

-s doesn't work for the DH, don't know about the other UD.

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#13 Post by Konnar »

The garg is such fun, with ravenous dive and getting heroes stuck and all :D

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#14 Post by jamn455 »

Tehw00tz wrote:Obviously you haven't tried blight.
I did a 1v1 on Candleburg against a computer Gravel and I destroyed him. Defiler's ultimate is insane, taking away that amount of strength for one minute.
Tox brought this up last night... Who cant destroy a computer hero 1v1? Not to be an asshole, but that doesnt really tell anything we dont already know. All you have to worry about is spaming of rockslide.
Line 'em up.
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#15 Post by mianmian »

Blight is kidna OP, its like Scarabs ult but ALL the time, its probably his strongest move IMO, I told this to Yak when we were testing a game a long time ago :p
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#16 Post by BLUEPOWERVAN »

I think siege lord is missing a little... maybe add a slight slowing effect to his fear so you can get hits easier on running heroes or maybe a short buff to his current aura ... I also wish his guards had huntress type range so they would stop tanking so much... but eh.

I think the aura scaling is a little strange, I will have to play again to explain what I mean (or even understand what I mean I guess... how is that for accurate valuable feedback!)

ud just seem to have weaker aoe in general, which makes them poor, and unusually vulnerable to massive creep waves.

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#17 Post by BLUEPOWERVAN »

update on further siege investigation:

About the auras: they seem kind of weak, compared to other buffs/debuffs.

Seems like his primary pushing buff would be damage reduction aura... however, it compares poorly to, for instance, ebb. I understand an aura has no mana cost associated and can't be dispelled, but ebb has more than double the attack value reduction ( -70% attack speed, means it takes 3.33X as long to reduce the same amount of hp, -30% damage reduction means it takes around 1.4X as long), it also slows movement speed, and does not require the hero to be present.

His aoe buff is the most popular, since it raises some money... but really not very much money, since it is very unlikely to recieve lasts hits... even solo tanking waves, a subsequent friendly wave will appear before any enemies die from the aura alone, and so the wave will focus fire on aura'd units and get most of the kills.

The aoe barely scales in damage, from 4/sec to 6/sec + level mod.

other than his aura, he just seems like a weak version of fenris. He has tanking abilities, but tanking is of very limited value in eota, and his tanking value is much lower than that of true healers anyway... the cast time on his minions is too long for them to be spammed in order to provide meat.

fear is nice, but as stated previously a little lacking... particularly upgrading seems unworthwhile -- 2 skill ups just to fear heroes for 4 seconds instead of 3? I mean, there is a chance they will run back into your own creep wave and be trapped, but certain other heroes can just pick you up and pluck you down from level 1 (and for just as cheap). I think the skill is great, but the upgrade value is very questionable... at level one it will do all the cool things it does at high levels (get you out of the middle of big creep waves, interrupt heroes, give a chance of making heroes run back into creeps)... just at less mana

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#18 Post by Konnar »

Maybe reduce cooldowns at higher levels? That way it'd be like dispell, useful at lv 1 but much better as the levels go

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#19 Post by Hammel »

Actually I think the Sorrow Lieges Auras are quite powerful...

Speed Aura: Makes him a great chaser and, together with Mortal Strike, one of the most powerful hero killers... probably even better than Fenny since it deals more damage than lunge and reduces the effectiveness of healing. In combination with spawns you can slightly increase the speed of a push, possibly deciding a game...

+Evoc Damage: Ember's nukes are evoc, right? They already deal a considerable amount of damage, even to buildings, now think of that damage increased by some nice amount... OUCH... would be even better if there were more AoE/Evoc nukers on UD side...

Frailty (damaging aura): While not necessarily powerful against spawns most of the time (until lategame), it can stop any hero from regaining hp... so either they go to a base/fountain to heal, and you can level/push, or they give you the opportunity to kill them them next time...

-dmg Aura: useful against high attack damage heroes, and when defending bases... while not as effective as Ebb, as you correctly say, this isnt a skill by itself and cannot be stopped (Ebb can be dispelled)...

Guess I forgot one aura, but that doesnt matter too much: all the auras I mentioned have a use, and together they make Forlorn Crown one of the most worthwile skills...


In terms of Fear: it is one of the most effective escape skills in the game. For killing heroes Rue got enough skills, killing units isnt his topic. It can even be used as a powerful defensive measure when you completely stop the siege of a base with it for some seconds...
Probably Ebb is more effective in long terms since it lasts longer, or Holy Strike/Gale just kill the units, BUT: all these skills need tons of Skill Points and maybe Int/+evoc to do that... Fear needs one level for 5 seconds (?) safety...
As I just think of it, you can even delay pushes by running into an upcomming mob, casting it and slowing the enemy through the confusion (units running back and forth through each other, blocking themselves)...

As you can see Fear is pretty strong when you arent just focused on hero-killing, but see different situations... In the forum we had between the modforge times, someone (Warskull?) posted a guide on SB... For Incinerate he suggested "Be creative, find all the different possibilities for this great spell" or something along those lines... get a battle into/out of tower range and stuff...

In terms of upgrading Fear: Yeah, maybe it is uneffective... I agree with Konnar that you can do something about the CD, and when you also use that skill to it's furthest extent, people will call you imba ;).

<End on Rue>

In terms of feeling: No, UD don't feel right... somehow I miss the EotA-feeling I had when I first played the map... may be just me though... maybe I am going to edit something else in here, when I find the patience for it...

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#20 Post by jamn455 »

Alright, emberwraith needs to be taken out of the game. His smokescreen needs to be tweaked so it takes away from something other than movement speed as you can just put it on with a small push and destroy a base with corona and his nuke.

Corona needs to be trashed. It is firestorm with way to end it other than killing the hero, and with a little armor and smokescreen on it can be damn hard and by that time corona is overwith and on a map like candleburg it is already over.
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#21 Post by mianmian »

Ok, Prince Rie ( Sorrow Liege, not Siege Lord) is fine, if you unnerf him, or want to, your an idiot IMO, or ccant play him at all.

Emberwraith is the BP for UD, enkindle < FotD IMO
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#22 Post by BLUEPOWERVAN »

You misunderstood, I didnt say the auras weren't useful effects, just that they weren't valuable enough to make him a good support hero... or good at siege.

Major EotA categorys for me:
support: good for heroes, only mild for creeps
hero killing: good, but not as good as fenris (who he is most similar too, hero killing style is speed + direct damage, melee range... lower melee damage output, mostly because of fewer hits due to lack of slow, but also lack of crit, I believe lower base damage and so on) or others
siege: relatively weak siege skills
aoe: (ability to solo stop large waves/ and cash flow): low... some tanking ability, but not as much as a healer class.

if I were to give numerical rankings for the above, compared to other heroes on all 3 sides, I would say:

support: 4
hero killing: 8.5
siege: 2.5
aoe: 1.5 (compared to all heroes not just ud)

He has good skills, they just don't add up to filling the traditional roles.

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#23 Post by Hammel »

You forgot tanking, where he can be good at (due to high hp, Fear and his summons)...

And while he cannot slow/crit the enemy like Fenny, Mortal Strike still does more damage, and he has got a speed boost, making up for the slow a bit (I know he wont get as many hits in)... and Fenny is solely good (or used) for hero-killing, while Rue can also support well...

At Siege he can be exceptional due to Order Attack and his Ult which summons a giant damage blocker. With fear he sends enemy units away and aggro stays on the towers, 2.5 is definately too low ;)

Order Attack and his Ult which is a flying command tower also give him great tactical abilities, probably better than Tact's ones... (since Flank doesnt affect normal units anymore, she can only influence their behaviour through Order Attack, while Rue also has his Ult)...

At AoE he may be weak, but no hero should be good everywhere imo... However, I'd like to hear other people's opinions and arguements on this...

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#24 Post by mianmian »

Im sorry but Rue is a much better PK'er then Fenris, MS does more damage, stops heals, hes faster (with aura), Fear is amazing CC.

I personally dont like his Ult, but with order attack it seems to work pretty well.

His guards help his tanking (split damage and tank some mobs) wich he tanks very well, he has pretty high str.
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#25 Post by BLUEPOWERVAN »

People will have their opinions, fenris and rue are different heroes period, though I will say that a slow is better than a faster movement speed. Though to be honest, I don't think you are giving his base run speed and dream run a fair shake (talking especially low levels, where aura will not be very high as mortal strike is being raised)

Anyway, showed up with an entirely different agenda, you can agree or not about rue. I think acid reaver is a bit over tweaked now.

If you want to talk about an unfavorable comparison, compare him and rue. Reaver rolls in money, has nearly as good a modifier on his str ability and is a much better tanker (not just because he has up to 80% damage reduction base and can afford to pump strength, but because he actually kills the creeps he tanks...) At medium levels can easily teleport into the middle of almost any size creep wave and level them with just mana, and so on and so forth... His finishing potential in hero killing, is weaker than rue's, but he doesnt need to walk around creep waves, has a ranged nuke, and so has much less risk. I was probably undervalueing rue's siege abilities, but his attack move is broken currently. I think reaver's siege abilities are at least comparable. )

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