EotA/DotA

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EotA/DotA

#1 Post by DarkNemesis »

Ok, so the current hot topic is comparing the similarities (and/or differences) between DotA and EotA. There probably already is another thread for this, but its likely hellish old, so eh.

First off, I don't consider myself a experienced DotA player, though for the most part, I can hold my own ground. Unless, God forbid, you see the occasional kid abuse Morphing and gang rape mobs of enemy hero's.

My opinion of DotA overall is good, its a great AoS map, but nowhere near the complexity or diversity of EotA. I'll compare a list.

DotA

--Spawn is very limited, and few and far in between.
--Bases cannot be built, repaired, nor can creeps be hired.
--Heros are far weaker, their spells hit for alot less, and for the most part, you die more often.
--Death penalities are quite harsh
--There is far less team play, most heros lack even a shitty heal, and cohesion between most of the heros is almost nonexistent.
--Different builds are almost unheard of. If your hero is Int-based, chances are, you'll be pooling money into that attribute. Far less options.
--Gold is harder to come by, but used solely for the purpose of your hero.
--Leveling is very different. EotA requires some real work to level properly. DotA, however, you earn a skill every level.

I know I missed some, feel free to comment/add.

EotA

--Spawn is almost unlimited. And swarming armies can actually be quite common.
--Bases can be built, rebuilt, repaired. And numerous creeps can be hired.
--Heroes tend to last longer due to far better spells, many heals, and team-oriented play. They also scale higher HP overall (A decent tank in DotA may have 2k HP while in EotA it isn't uncommon to acquire 4k HP on strength heros, or even more).
--Death is EotA (I think) is pretty soft.
--Far more team strategy.
--Gold for most of the heros (particularly the AoE and DPS classes) is pretty easy to earn. However, due to the sheer size and complexity of the games, a large chunk if it usually goes to creeps, repairs, etc. Leaving for less gold for the hero than DotA.
--Less pressure one the individual hero, more on the overall game.
--Leveling takes longer, usually.

This is rough, I know. But for the most part covers the basics.
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Re: EotA/DotA

#2 Post by Casval »

This is an extreme generalization, but...
Success in DotA depends largely on skill, but success in EotA depends largely on knowledge.

1. DotA has a heavy emphasis on XP gaining and denial. XP is very important in the early game; the first 10 minutes of laning can often determine a game.
2. DotA has a heavy emphasis on death; killing people, especially early, is game changing.
3. DotA is a killing-oriented game. Pushing often comes secondary. In EotA, you can hire mercs to back you up in a push, etc.
4. The knowledge portion of DotA exists in items and hero combos. The skill portion comes in laning, ganking, and team fights. In EotA, knowledge comes in hero combos, the general mechanics of the map, what spawns to build, how to build your hero (a nonexistent problem in DotA), and some other stuff. Skill comes in mainly in your strategic overall decisions as opposed to how you fight.

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Re: EotA/DotA

#3 Post by Discombobulator »

Casval wrote:This is an extreme generalization, but...
Success in DotA depends largely on skill, but success in EotA depends largely on knowledge.

1. DotA has a heavy emphasis on XP gaining and denial. XP is very important in the early game; the first 10 minutes of laning can often determine a game.
2. DotA has a heavy emphasis on death; killing people, especially early, is game changing.
3. DotA is a killing-oriented game. Pushing often comes secondary. In EotA, you can hire mercs to back you up in a push, etc.
4. The knowledge portion of DotA exists in items and hero combos. The skill portion comes in laning, ganking, and team fights. In EotA, knowledge comes in hero combos, the general mechanics of the map, what spawns to build, how to build your hero (a nonexistent problem in DotA), and some other stuff. Skill comes in mainly in your strategic overall decisions as opposed to how you fight.
Pretty well said.

However, a couple of additions: hero picking and pairing is a very important skill in Dota, too. Also, how to build a hero (skills + items) matters and is complicated far more in Dota.
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Re: EotA/DotA

#4 Post by Discombobulator »

And DarkNemesis has no idea what he's talking about, nor does he appear to have ever played Dota, as evidenced by his post.
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Re: EotA/DotA

#5 Post by DarnYak »

Success in DotA depends largely on skill, but success in EotA depends largely on knowledge.
I kind of reject arguements like this. EotA hasn't developed any sort of pro playerbase where skill difference actually starts to matter. Sure, it might exist between a few players, but they don't play frequently enough or with/against each other enough, you'd really need frequently games with at least 3 on each side. As it is, it's not important enough to care about denials and such because it isn't likely to change the game outcome anyway.

Overall I don't like comparisions of EotA and DotA. DotA has a specific goal for gameplay in mind, I have something quite different (which is what compelled me to make EotA, i didn't feel it existed in any other AoS, except to a very minor extent in ToB)

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Re: EotA/DotA

#6 Post by Casval »

DarnYak wrote:
Success in DotA depends largely on skill, but success in EotA depends largely on knowledge.
I kind of reject arguements like this. EotA hasn't developed any sort of pro playerbase where skill difference actually starts to matter. Sure, it might exist between a few players, but they don't play frequently enough or with/against each other enough, you'd really need frequently games with at least 3 on each side. As it is, it's not important enough to care about denials and such because it isn't likely to change the game outcome anyway.

Overall I don't like comparisions of EotA and DotA. DotA has a specific goal for gameplay in mind, I have something quite different (which is what compelled me to make EotA, i didn't feel it existed in any other AoS, except to a very minor extent in ToB)

DarnYak
I'm aware of this, but I still think the skill ceiling in DotA is much higher than in EotA, mainly because of the way the games are designed. The skill in DotA comes in hero killing, and the game is designed towards fairly high APM, twitch-reflex players who are able to see through masses of spell effects and finish battles that last usually less than 10 seconds. EotA's primary objective comes in pushing, and since you don't actually have control of any units, the skill here comes in knowing what to get, etc.

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Re: EotA/DotA

#7 Post by Mills »

Discombobulator wrote:
Casval wrote:This is an extreme generalization, but...
Success in DotA depends largely on skill, but success in EotA depends largely on knowledge.

1. DotA has a heavy emphasis on XP gaining and denial. XP is very important in the early game; the first 10 minutes of laning can often determine a game.
2. DotA has a heavy emphasis on death; killing people, especially early, is game changing.
3. DotA is a killing-oriented game. Pushing often comes secondary. In EotA, you can hire mercs to back you up in a push, etc.
4. The knowledge portion of DotA exists in items and hero combos. The skill portion comes in laning, ganking, and team fights. In EotA, knowledge comes in hero combos, the general mechanics of the map, what spawns to build, how to build your hero (a nonexistent problem in DotA), and some other stuff. Skill comes in mainly in your strategic overall decisions as opposed to how you fight.
Pretty well said.

However, a couple of additions: hero picking and pairing is a very important skill in Dota, too. Also, how to build a hero (skills + items) matters and is complicated far more in Dota.
I think this is the first time anyone has gotten this right, meaning wrote it down as a forum post.

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Re: EotA/DotA

#8 Post by Ion »

Well said Casval.

I agree with Yak to an extent that EotA's player-base isn't big enough to merit skill being a primary factor in winning over knowledge. But at the same time the skill required to play DotA is greater then the skill required to win at EotA, simply because DotA is very PvP. Generally there's enough weird stuff going on in EotA (Gens, Obs, mercs, merc heroes, termites o_O) to negate PvP skill (though not always) and even in IHs we did tend to see a lot of quick games decided by an intelligent exploit of the game's features (exploit operationally defined here as intelligent use of game features not hax =p).

One of things that also really seperates DotA from EotA is in the heroes themselves. In DotA you generally find heroes have internal skill cohesion and 'combo' with themselves. In EotA despite having two more skills, your skills are to an extent independent of one another (but you use them together anyway) and you have to rely on allies' skills to make up for the disparity.
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Re: EotA/DotA

#9 Post by Casval »

Ion wrote:Well said Casval.

I agree with Yak to an extent that EotA's player-base isn't big enough to merit skill being a primary factor in winning over knowledge. But at the same time the skill required to play DotA is greater then the skill required to win at EotA, simply because DotA is very PvP. Generally there's enough weird stuff going on in EotA (Gens, Obs, mercs, merc heroes, termites o_O) to negate PvP skill (though not always) and even in IHs we did tend to see a lot of quick games decided by an intelligent exploit of the game's features (exploit operationally defined here as intelligent use of game features not hax =p).

One of things that also really seperates DotA from EotA is in the heroes themselves. In DotA you generally find heroes have internal skill cohesion and 'combo' with themselves. In EotA despite having two more skills, your skills are to an extent independent of one another (but you use them together anyway) and you have to rely on allies' skills to make up for the disparity.
Yes, forgot about that. Over on the DotA forums we call that "self synergy" vs "team synergy". Back in the old days a lot of heroes had forced synergy, where one skill directly buffed another (see Krobelus' Witchcraft) but now we have a policy where any new hero or hero suggestion must avoid it. DotA heroes also all have some means of hero killing, again reinforcing the kill-based gameplay. The smaller map, globs of movement speed items, and regen items push that sort of thing even more.

I've only played EotA pubs, but the general feeling I get when new players join is that they just simply have no clue what's going on. So either they sit down and read through everything and slowly try to understand, or you have to sit down and slowly explain everything. Again, this goes back to my belief that initially anyway, the amount of gameplay knowledge you require to just get started is a bit offputting to many players.

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Re: EotA/DotA

#10 Post by Kalrithus »

I would argue that before you can develop skill at either map, you must first have a decent understand/knowledge of the game. DotA has been heavily played for a long time now, while EotA while being played for a long time hasn't been played as heavily due to the smaller playerbase. This is because both games generally appeal to different people/mindsets. What I normally see is the people good at DotA are often impatient and have a typically agressive playstyle that suits the small fastpaced environment of DotA's constant PvP. Yes it takes "skill" to deny creeps and travel around in little ganking squads (lol) but only because it is limited to such a small environ. EotA on the other hand takes a bit more thought (at least Stormwail) where you have to consider not solely on just killing the other players, but also how to effectively counter a push in multiple lanes, and wen to counter-push and take control of obelisks/tears. This imo takes quite a bit more skill, even after the knowledge barrier is broken, because its a greater focus on macro management and not just a single hero. Although depending on your playstyle you could always be lazy and not bother to aid your team in base maintenance, and go around like a DotA hero and try to PK everything in sight.

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Re: EotA/DotA

#11 Post by Tehw00tz »

DarkNemesis wrote: --There is far less team play, most heros lack even a shitty heal, and cohesion between most of the heros is almost nonexistent.
I lol'd
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Re: EotA/DotA

#12 Post by Ion »

I'm not sure you're accurately representing how DotA is played. DotA is a very patient game and is very fluid- the set-ups, PKs, first blood situations change every game. It is skill to be able to time your attacks to kill a creep another person is trying to hit, and it does take knowledge of the map, opposing heroes & their positions and skill to be able to carry out a gank of (a) single/two/more then one hero(es).

I would question whether you've ever played a full DotA game. If you have, it seems you may have had a bad experience, or are biased against it. Obelisks, Moon Tears, etc. are just different variations of the way DotA distributes gains (through PKs and tower kills). To hold an Ob. is not dissimilar from preventing a Level 1 Tower to die at Level 12; they are different, but the tactics are not wholly distinct (in EotA there are simply more ways to prevent this from happening).
This imo takes quite a bit more skill, even after the knowledge barrier is broken, because its a greater focus on macro management and not just a single hero. Although depending on your playstyle you could always be lazy and not bother to aid your team in base maintenance, and go around like a DotA hero and try to PK everything in sight.
This is a flawed argument, just from a logical perspective. You're asking a complex question. First you pre-suppose that in EotA it is not helpful to go around like "a DotA hero" and try to PK everything in sight. Secondly you pre-suppose that the macro-management in EotA is comprehensive enough to take 'more skill'.

Taking the first argument, it is not true that PKs in EotA aren't helpful (they give gold and crystal), therefore it is not true that PKing everything in sight is useless. It is useful. To have heroes good at PKing played by individuals good at PKing helps the team out, so I'd hope they do try and PK everything in sight within reason. In DotA, the better players know when to amass PKs, when it's possible and when to push limits. So not all DotA heroes try to "PK everything in sight", but if they could they would because in WC3 that's generally a good thing. Killing heroes in EotA is not dissimilar from DotA (same method; different means, as in abilities and inter-ability cohesion), so it follows the same pattern, there's just generally less PKs and they're concentrated in a few heroes.

Secondly, the macro-management in EotA is integrated into the goals of the game. By not macro-managing your bases (repairing, etc.), mercing, building spawn towers against someone who does you are at a serious disadvantage. However in DotA you do not have that option. Without that option, you can't consider macro-manage, so it's irrelevant to the game. So comparing the two is pointless in this aspect is pointless. In DotA, having a ton of macro-management skill does you jack squat. But that doesn't mean the skill required to play DotA is qualitatively and quantitatively less then the skill required to play EotA just because EotA takes macro-management skill.

That isn't to say it's not possible for EotA to take more skill then DotA, or even for someone to argue that DotA takes more skill from EotA, just that your argument doesn't prove either :|
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Re: EotA/DotA

#13 Post by Discombobulator »

How can you possibly care about this game enough to consistently produce these walls of text?
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Re: EotA/DotA

#14 Post by Kalrithus »

Ion wrote:I'm not sure you're accurately representing how DotA is played. DotA is a very patient game and is very fluid- the set-ups, PKs, first blood situations change every game. It is skill to be able to time your attacks to kill a creep another person is trying to hit, and it does take knowledge of the map, opposing heroes & their positions and skill to be able to carry out a gank of (a) single/two/more then one hero(es).
You may have failed to note that I did acknowledge that it takes skill to deny creeps, albeit of a different sort than most people tend to care about. Also I describe here what I normally see in pub games, and I certainly wouldn't characterize those as patient games by any stretch of the imagination. The (lol) was directed mainly towards the ganking squads which I don't really have a beef with other than I don't see how it takes skill (other than ensuring the target doesn't escape in the FoW. DotA is a dynamic and fast-paced game that as I said *generally* appeals to those that an aggressive and impatient mindset.
I would question whether you've ever played a full DotA game.
I loled, FYI I've been playing DotA since the original releases and through the Darkness Falls shenanigans, I don't have a problem with the game in general, just can't stand the retarded playerbase it has garnered, just to disabuse you of that notion.
This imo takes quite a bit more skill, even after the knowledge barrier is broken, because its a greater focus on macro management and not just a single hero. Although depending on your playstyle you could always be lazy and not bother to aid your team in base maintenance, and go around like a DotA hero and try to PK everything in sight.
This is a flawed argument, just from a logical perspective. You're asking a complex question. First you pre-suppose that in EotA it is not helpful to go around like "a DotA hero" and try to PK everything in sight. Secondly you pre-suppose that the macro-management in EotA is comprehensive enough to take 'more skill'.
Again you may be misreading me or I'm just having a hard time making my point (which is not uncommon). First off no it is not helpful to go around like "a DotA hero" and try to PK everything in sight to the exclusion of aiding your team in base maintenance and the like (this would include pushing/counterpushing). Sure you are bringing in the crystal and gold which could be used to help out your team... If you actually put it to use helping with the objectives that matter. My point is assuming the person is someone whose sole goal is PKing to the detriment of his own team, which believe it or not there are many people out there like that. How long do you think a team that pays no attention to its base or to map objectives whether it be obelisks/moontears/etc. will last against a team that does. Now if said PKer had a supportive team that took care of ALL the base management and left him alone to do his thing, he could periodically pool some of his money to the ones doing so, and thus contribute to the overall effort, then I have no issue whatsoever with it.

To your second point "Secondly you pre-suppose that the macro-management in EotA is comprehensive enough to take 'more skill'" As I stated at the beginning of the quote, this is my opinion. I believe that it takes greater effort and skill to pay attention to and manage the different events that take place on a map the size of Stormwail even when you only have limited control of the units. Recognizing where a giant push is occurring, when a potentially vulnerable obelisk tower is going up, what spawn towers are being built where, and the generally movement of the enemy heroes, IMO takes more skill than microing 1 hero that has no control of units, on a relatively small map.
Secondly, the macro-management in EotA is integrated into the goals of the game. By not macro-managing your bases (repairing, etc.), mercing, building spawn towers against someone who does you are at a serious disadvantage. However in DotA you do not have that option. Without that option, you can't consider macro-manage, so it's irrelevant to the game. So comparing the two is pointless in this aspect is pointless. In DotA, having a ton of macro-management skill does you jack squat. But that doesn't mean the skill required to play DotA is qualitatively and quantitatively less then the skill required to play EotA just because EotA takes macro-management skill.
You call my "argument" flawed and then say because in DotA you don't have the option for macro-management that it no longer can be factored in to the overall skill level of the two games? Ok so we can't point out where things are different anymore, that's just great...
My statement was not intended to take anything from DotA, referring back to earlier it is my opinion that because EotA takes macro-management skill it, it takes more skill to play than just DotA. Not because macro-management is so super amazing that it tips the scales for EotA, but simply because it adds another layer of gameplay and complexity that DotA simply does not have. Again this is my opinion, and I don't believe that there's anything wrong with DotA as it is. I just believe that it takes less skill to play it effectively than it does EotA.
That isn't to say it's not possible for EotA to take more skill then DotA, or even for someone to argue that DotA takes more skill from EotA, just that your argument doesn't prove either :|
Again my "argument" was not meant to convince or prove one way or the other, it was simply to state my opinion on the two. Considering how bad I am at explaining things, and how little my opinion on these things should even matter, I doubt I'm capable of changing minds on either side.
Edit: Because I fail with the quote tag.

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Re: EotA/DotA

#15 Post by Ion »

How can you possibly care about this game enough to consistently produce these walls of text?
When you take Phil120 from 10-1 shit like this happens.

Kalrithus your post takes TL;DR to another level =p perhaps at some point I'll get to it.
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Re: EotA/DotA

#16 Post by Rockness »

I don't have the where-with-all to read all that right now. Although having logged many hours into both Eota & Dota I'll put it as simply as I see it.

In Dota, I'm A Soldier. I fight other soldiers.
In Eota, I'm A General. I fight other generals.

The big difference to me are the armies:
In Dota there are melee infantry, ranged infantry & siege. Their primary use is income, secondary use is for supporting pushes.

Whereas in Eota there are light & heavy melee infantry, there are casters, there is ranged infantry, there is seige, there are summoners, there are mercenaries to bolster numbers & overall lane presence, their primary use is for hero support & pushing, income is secondary.

Each game requires a distinctly unique style of play & despite the name similarities they are not interchangeable, that is to say a pro Dota player could get worked by a seasoned Eota player & vice versa.

As for which one is better, I personally don't care, they are both fun for their own reasons, it's like arguing whether chocolate is better than vanilla, not every one has the same taste palettes & it would be unreasonable if we did.

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