This game is overly complicated and puts new players off.

[Casval]

Sup.

Someone want to explain to me why banning a player requires you to buy a 300 gold item?
Why gaining levels gives you advantages over new players (ie, -temper)?
Why the default map, Stormwail Peak, is also the biggest, most confusing map, and causes new players to leave simply upon seeing it?

[Leek]

The gold on ban-hammer is so it isn't abused, its not to be used lightly, well that's the reasoning anyway. Sometimes it can really suck though.

I don't know what Yak was thinking with that one to be honest, its not really a huge advantage, but it is there and it can be felt. I don't use it and is hasn't hurt me

Stormwail was the original, if thats what you mean by default. I like it how it is, its not really that confusing if you bother to read your scroll or ask someone else a question.

On a side note, Cand and Gloomreap both sucks and have worse documentation. Kedge's has bad documentation but is broken atm and crashes.

[Ion]

-temper should be available to everyone, it would make it so noobs could upgrade their scrolls way better. I'm with you on that one.

Stormwail isn't bad and is probably the most balanced/fun of the maps (until Kedge gets working). I'm not saying people don't like it, but I can't remember anyone leaving just over getting Stormwail (as opposed to Gloom/Candle where people vacate frequently).

[Casval]

I understand the reasoning behind it, but it can be extremely frustrating to kick an idiot out of the game. You not only have to coordinate your team to do it (which is hard enough given that half the people in pubs completely ignore you), but you have to use 1200 total team gold, and it takes time to actually. So, in the end, someone on your team is fucking it up, and you have to fuck it up even more just to get him to leave. Really, really annoying. A -votekick command with a timer on it like in Battletanks would be fine IMO.

I love Stormwail myself, and I was playing back when it was the only map, but it should really not be default. I just returned to EotA and was surprised to see Candleburg, and I agree, it needs proper documentation. I'm tired of having to explain every game to new players what to do with the scroll, how to place obelisks, etc. And the sad thing is, because the players who actually WANT to learn how to play stop and figure it out, they end up going to lanes late and having a disadvantage in levels. And I didn't figure out until today what the metagame in Gloom was. I ask almost every time I play it and everyone says "not sure". In fact, if the Wiki is open to editing, I may go and edit it myself after posting this.

[Ion]

Just ignore the newfags, let them learn the way evolution intended.

[Discombobulator]

Sup.

Someone want to explain to me why banning a player requires you to buy a 300 gold item?
Why gaining levels gives you advantages over new players (ie, -temper)?
Why the default map, Stormwail Peak, is also the biggest, most confusing map, and causes new players to leave simply upon seeing it?

Just play EotA. You'll find out that everything has a reason and that it's very logical.

[Something]

In all honesty it doesn't make sense to call it complicated if you're comparing it to other AoS maps like DotA.

It has something not in other AoS maps, sure, but in reality it doesn't take that much to understand it. Each map is fairly simple, and only a brief explanation at the start of a match should be more than enough to understand the basic idea. If you need more than this, consider practicing something like math, or reading, where you do something step by step. Do this to help build comprehension and logic skills! Or you can slit your damned wrists because you might just be a stubborn jackass dead set on finding everything but getting drunk, beating women and flipping burgers difficult. REALLY though, in all seriousness, it just isn't that hard.

Take a look at something like DotA which has 93 heros or some crap with loads of items, places to get them, and then item combinations. It is much easier to fall behind on that game as a new player trying to rummage through all the shit than it is on EotA. Just the amount of learning required to be efficient on DotA is much larger than it is on EotA. Aside from the huge mass of heros and items, the only thing a player really needs to learn that is different from DotA is a greater control over the army. Still, there is less to learn overall in EotA than there is in DotA, there are just more concepts to learn.

I guess learning something new, even if it is something SMALL, is considered "complex". Wow, great job skills.

[Casval]

Sup.

Someone want to explain to me why banning a player requires you to buy a 300 gold item?
Why gaining levels gives you advantages over new players (ie, -temper)?
Why the default map, Stormwail Peak, is also the biggest, most confusing map, and causes new players to leave simply upon seeing it?

Just play EotA. You'll find out that everything has a reason and that it's very logical.

No. Just no.

In all honesty it doesn't make sense to call it complicated if you're comparing it to other AoS maps like DotA.

It has something not in other AoS maps, sure, but in reality it doesn't take that much to understand it. Each map is fairly simple, and only a brief explanation at the start of a match should be more than enough to understand the basic idea. If you need more than this, consider practicing something like math, or reading, where you do something step by step. Do this to help build comprehension and logic skills! Or you can slit your damned wrists because you might just be a stubborn jackass dead set on finding everything but getting drunk, beating women and flipping burgers difficult. REALLY though, in all seriousness, it just isn't that hard.

Take a look at something like DotA which has 93 heros or some crap with loads of items, places to get them, and then item combinations. It is much easier to fall behind on that game as a new player trying to rummage through all the shit than it is on EotA. Just the amount of learning required to be efficient on DotA is much larger than it is on EotA. Aside from the huge mass of heros and items, the only thing a player really needs to learn that is different from DotA is a greater control over the army. Still, there is less to learn overall in EotA than there is in DotA, there are just more concepts to learn.

I guess learning something new, even if it is something SMALL, is considered "complex". Wow, great job skills.

You and the above poster are missing the point completely.

DotA is a well-established map that has had players following it for years. I'm a Clan TDA moderator... I myself have been playing since 5.84 (so, ~5+ years). A good number of our players have been playing for similar periods of time. It didn't always have so many items, and when it does get new items and heroes, people learn fast, because they've been playing it forever.

I play EotA a lot, occasionally with some TDA admins, and I like to put it this way: "DotA is a battle, EotA is a war". There is a LOT of crap going on in EotA, yes. With DotA, you can be new at the game, but the basic mechanics are just "kill shit and push". As you play, you learn the heroes, the items, and other crap. With EotA it's not nearly that simple. You get thrust into the game--if it's Stormpeak, you're probably thinking "wat"--you start off with a scroll you probably won't read, you realize it's next to impossible to get creep kills early, your allies are all far away, there's a ton of shops EVERYWHERE, yet you have difficulty finding your own shops in base. There's a restricted item system, multiple resources, different metagames depending on the battlefield, an Altar containing important upgrades that most newbies completely forget exists, multiple workers building multiple buildings, and so on.

I'm not saying to simplify the game. I'm saying to streamline the in-game documentation and application of concepts.

1. -temper should be available to everyone. Level/XP should be used for bragging rights, not gameplay advantages; IE, a model with a little doodad attached.
2. Default map should not be Stormwail Peak. When Kedge is fixed, it should be Kedge.
3. The game start sequence should be... Cinematics > Battlefield Vote > Hero selection WITH battlefield instructions and victory conditions > Game start
4. Banhammer replaced with chat command limited by frequency (ie, once every 5 min)

EotA isn't THAT popular right now, and it's kind of a shame, because it's a really great AoS. The way it is, it's just not designed to pull new players in. When I first started playing several years ago, I had no clue what was going on, and the only reason I kept playing was because a friend forced me to learn every little mechanic. It's deep, but most players don't actively research the game they're playing. They want it to be spoonfed to them. This has nothing to do with their intelligence, skill level, or dedication--it's just how they treat their games. If the map can fix this sort of stuff, I guarantee you your EotA experience will be better.

[Discombobulator]

No. Just no.

The complaints department is at http://eota.on.nimp.org

You and the above poster are missing the point completely.

DotA is a well-established map that has had players following it for years. I'm a Clan TDA moderator... I myself have been playing since 5.84 (so, ~5+ years). A good number of our players have been playing for similar periods of time. It didn't always have so many items, and when it does get new items and heroes, people learn fast, because they've been playing it forever.

I play EotA a lot, occasionally with some TDA admins, and I like to put it this way: "DotA is a battle, EotA is a war". There is a LOT of crap going on in EotA, yes. With DotA, you can be new at the game, but the basic mechanics are just "kill shit and push". As you play, you learn the heroes, the items, and other crap. With EotA it's not nearly that simple. You get thrust into the game--if it's Stormpeak, you're probably thinking "wat"--you start off with a scroll you probably won't read, you realize it's next to impossible to get creep kills early, your allies are all far away, there's a ton of shops EVERYWHERE, yet you have difficulty finding your own shops in base. There's a restricted item system, multiple resources, different metagames depending on the battlefield, an Altar containing important upgrades that most newbies completely forget exists, multiple workers building multiple buildings, and so on.

I'm not saying to simplify the game. I'm saying to streamline the in-game documentation and application of concepts.

1. -temper should be available to everyone. Level/XP should be used for bragging rights, not gameplay advantages; IE, a model with a little doodad attached.
2. Default map should not be Stormwail Peak. When Kedge is fixed, it should be Kedge.
3. The game start sequence should be... Cinematics > Battlefield Vote > Hero selection WITH battlefield instructions and victory conditions > Game start
4. Banhammer replaced with chat command limited by frequency (ie, once every 5 min)

EotA isn't THAT popular right now, and it's kind of a shame, because it's a really great AoS. The way it is, it's just not designed to pull new players in. When I first started playing several years ago, I had no clue what was going on, and the only reason I kept playing was because a friend forced me to learn every little mechanic. It's deep, but most players don't actively research the game they're playing. They want it to be spoonfed to them. This has nothing to do with their intelligence, skill level, or dedication--it's just how they treat their games. If the map can fix this sort of stuff, I guarantee you your EotA experience will be better.

Dota isn't easy to learn because of magic but cause it's like a million other unoriginal aos maps. To someone who's never played Warcraft custom games before, they're just as hard to learn. Trust me, I've had experience with that

[CryptLord1234]

DotA is a well-established map that has had players following it for years. I'm a Clan TDA moderator... I myself have been playing since 5.84 (so, ~5+ years). A good number of our players have been playing for similar periods of time. It didn't always have so many items, and when it does get new items and heroes, people learn fast, because they've been playing it forever.

What I'm getting out of this, is that you've been playing for awhile, and all of the changes are rather incremental changes, so it follows (in my mind, anyway) that it's not so hard to learn -- Just another hero or two and maybe some items. Yeah, it didn't always have so many items, but it does now. Picking it up now, for someone like myself who hasn't played DotA in awhile, would be INCREDIBLY confusing.

I play EotA a lot, occasionally with some TDA admins, and I like to put it this way: "DotA is a battle, EotA is a war". There is a LOT of crap going on in EotA, yes. With DotA, you can be new at the game, but the basic mechanics are just "kill shit and push". As you play, you learn the heroes, the items, and other crap. With EotA it's not nearly that simple. You get thrust into the game--if it's Stormpeak, you're probably thinking "wat"--you start off with a scroll you probably won't read, you realize it's next to impossible to get creep kills early, your allies are all far away, there's a ton of shops EVERYWHERE, yet you have difficulty finding your own shops in base. There's a restricted item system, multiple resources, different metagames depending on the battlefield, an Altar containing important upgrades that most newbies completely forget exists, multiple workers building multiple buildings, and so on.

As for the first part of your paragraph, I believe that in all AoS the basic mechancs are "kill shit and push." Having hosted a good number of games titled, "EotA -- newbs welcome!" and teaching them how to play, they seem to understand that fairly well. As they play EotA, they tend to pick up on other things: "Hey, that guy has an item +2. How do I do that?" or "Why did they start spawning Druids?! How can I stop them?!".

As for the scroll, that's been the focus of a debate that's been going on for awhile: How to make people read it so they understand the tempering system. We haven't quite come up with a great way to figure that out; right now, it just flashes "Noob" over their head every once in awhile if they don't upgrade it in hopes of making them read it and go, "Why's it doing that?!"

As I understand it, most AoS games have multiple bases, so the 'allies being far away' thing is kinda a moot point; they're always nearby, you just gotta follow the spawn path. And as for finding item shops in your base, if you can't read "Equipment Shop" and "Item Shop", I don't know what to tell you. I mean, how do you make it more obvious? Any ideas?

Also, can you explain the "restricted item system" you're talking about? The only thing that comes off the top of my head are the Artifacts. The metagame and Altar are things that players pick up over time; they're not necessary for someone just picking up the game to know, although I would suppose that perhaps pointing it out would be good. It would be good to put up some text saying, 'Alternate Main Objective: Secure enough Obelisks" or something like that, though. And as for workers, they're never under the player's control; yeah, that's going on, but if they won't ask "what does that worker do?" or look and see what he does, do they really need to know?

I'm not saying to simplify the game. I'm saying to streamline the in-game documentation and application of concepts.

1. -temper should be available to everyone. Level/XP should be used for bragging rights, not gameplay advantages; IE, a model with a little doodad attached.
2. Default map should not be Stormwail Peak. When Kedge is fixed, it should be Kedge.
3. The game start sequence should be... Cinematics > Battlefield Vote > Hero selection WITH battlefield instructions and victory conditions > Game start
4. Banhammer replaced with chat command limited by frequency (ie, once every 5 min)

1: Yeah, I agree on this point, although you only have to play a couple games to get to the level where you can use it.
2: I think the default map is fine as Stormwail, although I could see an argument for Gloomreap (Slightly smaller while still keeping a significant part of the metagame intact for 'advanced' players to look at.) Not Kedge, though, I think 2 lanes isn't a good enough representation of what EotA has.
3: Including the battlefield instructions in that screen may not be a bad idea, although I would ask how you would intend to do that with the screen shifting to zoom in on heroes.
4:Yeah, possibly. I don't think it is terrible right now, though: You have to actually put some effort and cash into getting rid of a bad player, which in and of itself would act as a bit of a limiting factor. But a time limit would be good.

[CryptLord1234]

The complaints department is at http://eota.on.nimp.org

Any PARTICULAR reason my anti-virus caught this little jewel? Come on, man, be mature.

[jamn455]

Stormwail is the most confusing map.

This is where I stopped reading this thread.

[Discombobulator]

The complaints department is at http://eota.on.nimp.org

Any PARTICULAR reason my anti-virus caught this little jewel? Come on, man, be mature.

The site is of a mature nature - visit it without the annoying antivirus and see!

[DarnYak]

I appreciate this thread, so I don't want to ignore it. But I'm in the middle of finals (well, middle of studying hardcore for them), so I really don't have time to respond for another 2 weeks.

I did want to say Stormwail is not the default map (none are, its random if noone votes), its just the map at least one person will usually pick.

On a related note, I tried ot get a c2 version out, but certain bugs just wouldn't resolve themselves, so I don't know when i can do that.

DarnYak

[Ion]

This thread got jewed with walls of texts. All be wary of any money thieving from your pockets...

LOOK BEHIND YOU O_________________O

[CryptLord1234]

Good luck on the finals, Yak. Just finished mine myself.

[Kalrithus]

Same on the finals

As far as Stormwail being complex, its really not, the thing is people look at the map and say "oh my goodness that's huge!" While the map layout itself is fairly straight forward (You don't have multiple lanes doing loopdiloops) with it also having the best documentation with helpful little tips that pop up on your screen so that anyone who is casually interested can read them and pick up important points. Its not like Gloomreap where you have the gloomite system and multiple crisscrossing lanes(I miss obelisks there) where it can be very confusing for a new person to grasp. Kedge's is probably behind Stormwail in difficulty, though it seems no matter how many time I tell a pug team to "Hold right lane if you want to win!" they don't seem to understand that I really mean it. I personally am not as much a fan of Kedge simply because of how easily one side can secure victory if they get the first 2 tears (imo).

As far as your streamlining ideas for documentation I like #3, disagree with #2 for the above mentioned reasons and citing Yak that there is no set default map so its moot anyway. I'm really not sure where to stand on -temper command, its rank 8 which is fairly high but pretty attainable to those that play regularly and is a nice little reward to those who made it that far. Its also an incentive to keep your code which most people either forget, lose, or don't bother with. I'm fine with banhammer the way it is, don't really like using it but I concede it might be simpler for a chat command system to be used by the newer people.

Just my $5

[Casval]

Way too many replies to individually address, so I'm gonna be selective.

1. If you're going to post shock sites, I'm the wrong person to try it on. Been a /b/tard for years, and was a regular visitor of Orgrish and other sites.
2. If you think DotA is more complex than EotA, you're completely deluding yourself. The learning curve in DotA arises mainly from hero and skill combos. Most players will never realize why Drow is a piece of shit, etc. I want to reiterate though, that I'm not saying either map is better than the other, just that EotA takes a lot more time to learn the basic mechanics.
3. DotA is confusing to pick up on the first try. However, DotA is not EotA. DotA already has a huge player base, both casual and competitive; EotA does not have such a big base. That means DotA can afford the increasing complexity. EotA, on the other hand, loses potential players if basic concepts are not well-explained.
4. Restrictive item system I'm referring to is how you're limited to a single orb, etc. I know, I know, there's a fucking message that pops out, but the really, really sad thing is that almost every game you play, you will see random items sitting around the shop that someone bought and didn't notice dropped. It's not always just basic items, either; I've picked up +4 and +5 items, Orbs of Fury, etc. This could be remedied with the addition of "Your item was dropped" to the message that appears, because most people simply don't notice.
5. So, overall, there needs to be a greatly increased amount of in-game documentation. My suggestion would be to include those "annoying" in-game pop-up tips you see in other games. They pop up periodically, and you usually can turn them off with a command like -notips or something. The upside to this would be that newbies can learn as they play. Experienced players who don't need them can turn them off, or alternatively, they can be auto-off'd for players who enter a -load code.
6. DarnYak have fun with finals... I just finished mine an hour ago. Now I gotta move out and graduate = (

[Ion]

f you're going to post shock sites, I'm the wrong person to try it on. Been a /b/tard for years, and was a regular visitor of Orgrish and other sites.

You're right- guys come on. The internet is serious business.

So, overall, there needs to be a greatly increased amount of in-game documentation...etc.

This is already partially in-game. Unless you're suggesting the screen get filled with text, there's already an annoying pop-up that spams you to go to your altar, put your scroll in the altar, etc. It hasn't done much, but I'm sure a few people have benefited.

Stormwail, as Yak said is not the default map. There is no default map. People unfortunately vote on the map because Yak likes democracy.

[Tehw00tz]

1. If you're going to post shock sites, I'm the wrong person to try it on. Been a /b/tard for years, and was a regular visitor of Orgrish and other sites.

Explains a lot of things.

[Leek]

Alright, I agree documentation could be more obvious. It's really not that bad for stormwail, its all in the quest tab, but who looks at that amirite?

Kedge and them need more complete documentation, and documentation could be a bit more... obvious I guess.

Ok, for the Dota vs Eota easy thing?

Dota is simple, Eota is complex. Both however have depth. The difference is there, and I just explained it.

The restricted item system is to allow more cost effective items, armor/helm/orb get more bang for your buck then rings and junk. Just because you can only have one. I don't mind this, its fairly obvious when you buy it and its not in your inventory.

[Kalrithus]

Oh I forgot to mention, You say that you see dropped items by the shop occasionally, I'm not sure if this is the case in the situation you're referring to but if a person leaves in the middle of a game with items that the bot controller wouldn't normally pick, it will often drop the item by the shop in addition to buying its "correct" item. Cheers

[Gonzo]

There are different types of games industrialy labbeled according to the age of the player.

One of them is a game easily playable with low complexity like Dota. Just grab your axe and kill some monsters. Also don't die. Its simple to get and has few features. It's a game designed for a low aged public who can't wait to learn, read instructions and it is easily frustrable(is that a word?). Diablo, most of fighting games and Counter-Strike are games like that. I play or played all these games and think they are great games.

The other type of game is a complex not so easy to play like Eota. The difference is obvius. I like when someone said "Dota is a battle, Eota is a war". And I think it is true. I have been playing eota for some years since the first version with only stormwail map. It requires a player more mature capable of overcomming it's frustation. The inteligence of the player will make it learn faster or slower but what really means is the effort to understand the game. It isn't hard. There are no math or logical subjects that are absurd or even damn hard to understand but it has many of them. Also there is a high quantity of information happening all the time and someone that didn't get some parts of the game will simply not understand it because it's unknown but not impossible.

I like Eota more then Dota because of all it's strategies options and because the game is never the same twice. Today i've played with the same hero several times but i've played in many different ways exploring all his skills, buildings, armyes, items according to what my opponent was and was doing. That makes Eota a great game. It almost seems as real life!

Many things has come to me when I was reading this post but I wont write it all. I just wanted to say that if Eota changes to suit a player without effort it would ruin the game completly. It requires another type of attention and maybe dedication to play? Yes, it does and this is what it makes it the best.

[DarkNemesis]

I like Eota more then Dota because of all it's strategies options and because the game is never the same twice. Today i've played with the same hero several times but i've played in many different ways exploring all his skills, buildings, armyes, items according to what my opponent was and was doing. That makes Eota a great game. It almost seems as real life!

This is such a good statement, and the perfect example of why EotA is overall, vastly supperior to DotA. You have my nod, Gonzo.

[Ion]

DotA still requires you to read instructions. In fact, if you've never played you have to do a whole shit load of reading cause there's a gazillion heroes and items to get. Saying DotA is pre-pubescent is also a bit ridiculous. I can assure you there is enough "low aged public" unwilling to learn playing EotA as there is DotA (I started playing EotA at 14, go figure).

Just grab your axe and kill some monsters. Also don't die. Its simple to get and has few features...Diablo, most of fighting games and Counter-Strike are games like that. I play or played all these games and think they are great games.

This makes me seriously question whether or not you've ever played DotA. In EotA you also do not want to die. Like life, the object in most games is not to die.