"Random Races" Fel Horde

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"Random Races" Fel Horde

#1 Post by DarkNemesis »

I've got a question. Yak said that you can enable Fel Horde but only using "Random Races". Yet you can't enable the button on SP? It''s blotted out, I guess
only for Lan's/Internet.

Help?
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#2 Post by CryptLord1234 »

Up until now, it is indeed only for LAN / Internet. I just host un-joinable LAN games (Stupid college and port forwarding).

Putrid Eidolon rocks. Glacial Tyrant, IMO, not so much.
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#3 Post by Leek »

Eidolon is awsome, Tyrant is awsomer though :D

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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#4 Post by DarnYak »

Yea I didn't really hear about the button being greyed out till near the end, and there's not much I can do about it.

Sorry, you'll just have to use the work arounds mentioned.

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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#5 Post by DarkNemesis »

Oh, didn't think about that. Lol. Thanks guys :D

Yes, Eidolon is on crack. I think with some added Armor/Str/Hp Regen, coupled with shield, he could become almost unstoppable. A mobile Alexander lets just say. :cry:
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#6 Post by CryptLord1234 »

^Except not. He's ranged, his shield protects for far less, and his ult is way different.

I do enjoy him for what he is, though. Just wish I could summon Burstcap Mushrooms on command, those things look fun.

Also, can we get a way to delete the Corrupted Stumps? I found myself overwriting useful ones when there was one in my base from a misclick that just wouldn't go away.
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#7 Post by DarkNemesis »

CryptLord1234 wrote:^Except not. He's ranged, his shield protects for far less, and his ult is way different.

I do enjoy him for what he is, though. Just wish I could summon Burstcap Mushrooms on command, those things look fun.

Also, can we get a way to delete the Corrupted Stumps? I found myself overwriting useful ones when there was one in my base from a misclick that just wouldn't go away.
Yes, but his shield can stun and heal. :wink:

And his spore cloud is a great tanking ability, though it can be situational.

Plus, I don't see how ultimates or ranged attacks have much to do with tanking?

His ultimate is somewhat strange. My first real test I found it to be ok, not great but ok. Someone said the treat HP needs a nerf, I strongly disagree, towers hit like trucks against it.

What really confuses me is which abilities to invest, what do you do CryptLord? I guess it depends. He just has alot of stuff that's oriented towards tanking/not taking dmg, and stunning/disabling, it would seem ideal to invest towards one of those 2 specs. I''ll have to do some more testing. My first one I went attack speed/dmg. Upgrading entangling seed and spore cloud, with extra into shield. Put crystal into locusts slow poison to added another slowing effect and attack dmg, worked pretty well, got 22 hero kills. And all int caster just doesn't appeal to me, I know, I know, hes got all those int-based spells, but hes also got all those slows and disables. Some dmg and attack speed would seem appropriate. Maybe i'm not thinking like a pro, who knows, I just try to think outside the box. :?
Last edited by DarkNemesis on January 25th, 2009, 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#8 Post by Leek »

In a large game the best spec is Entangle+Fungal armor with 1 point in wilting. (you can even mix and match wilting/fungal armor)

Spore Cloud is his worst skill, tbh its pretty much terribly shitty, especially compared to his other skills.

DarkNemesis is right that in pure tanking ability Tyrant and Eidolon are quite good. However if your tanking with these heroes your doing something wrong since there both more casters who should be casting.

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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#9 Post by DarkNemesis »

Leek wrote:In a large game the best spec is Entangle+Fungal armor with 1 point in wilting. (you can even mix and match wilting/fungal armor)

Spore Cloud is his worst skill, tbh its pretty much terribly shitty, especially compared to his other skills.

DarkNemesis is right that in pure tanking ability Tyrant and Eidolon are quite good. However if your tanking with these heroes your doing something wrong since there both more casters who should be casting.
Come to think of it, Eidolon might be better off as a support tank/caster hero rather than a dmg one.

Leek, why max Entangle+Fungal Armor? Not saying its wrong, I need some feedback. :?

Yeah, you've bring up a very good point, and his is why I'm having such confusions. Maybe if they weren't so Int-focused? It seems the two new heroes have too many ways to be speced to make them really good at any one thing. Like Nephiliam sort of (actually, a mass str version of him is the best! max out life tap and I never needed a mana/int item. Really nuts). Both have potential for heavy dmg (spell casting/casters) as well as slows/disables/stuns (dps, dmg) and heals/life regens, dmg reduct (tanking). It's becoming really confusing.
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#10 Post by CryptLord1234 »

I dunno, I make a pretty even spread between Wilting, Seed, and Fungal Shield, and while Fungal Shield is ok, I don't find that its ability to put people asleep matches the 'tankability' of the Rune Shell of Alexander.

Spore cloud is OK, I'll only put points in it if I have to / don't have a single point in it. I primarily go with helping the team to push, which means a good bit of Wilting, a little Seed, a little Fungal, one point in Spore Cloud, and of course, Corrupted Grove whenever possible.

Also, ideal to invest toward stunning? Entangling Seed kinda does, I guess, but it can do decent damage if you stack int. I find myself working a lot with my friend, who plays Infiltrator, so we rack up the hero kills and therefore crystal to spend on extra points and the occasional Int. You say you want to invest into the stunning / tanking, but the only things that AREN'T related to Int when it comes to Eidolon are the duration of the spore cloud and the explosion damage of the Corrupted Protector. (Do correct me if I'm wrong.)

As for the Ultimate thing, I guess that doesn't really have anything to do with the argument. I was gonna say it usually displays what the Hero is ideal at, except in this game that isn't true at all. The ranged attack, though, kinda says he's not a tank, 'cause a tank is up front soaking up hits, and the whole ranged attack thing makes it seem like he's meant to be at range. Therefore not taking damage.

His shield can be good, although I tend to spread it on everyone first rather than give myself a second buff with it, so I find it goes away very quickly. My playstyle with Eidolon tends to assist creeps and heroes in getting kills and pushing forward. Lotsa damage + Entangling Seed + shield to help them stay alive. And all talents, of course, with the possible exception of the extended duration on the Grove.
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#11 Post by Leek »

Most skills don't scale linearly, so not having max level skills as soon as possible is a *huge* waste.

I just want to note that this is for use against real people who are at least somewhat skilled, against people who don't know whats going on and computers you can get away with anything.

Entangling Seed maxed first because its a good nuke, slows pushes and can stun. The delay between it going off and casting it is agility based so Orb of Skill is a must have.

Fungal Armor because the shield just gets stronger and stronger, means you can take more hits, means you don't have to leave the lane means you get more XP, more gold etc.

Spore Cloud is terrible, auto-attacks breaks the invis so that portion of the spell is basically useless. The -evocation damage and %sleep are not bad, the sleep in unreliable and -evo damage is situational and not that big (meaning endgame the AoE'er will still 1shot your push regardless). Your better off stopping the AoE'er with seed.

Wilting is actually a fairly strong AoE for its level since its channeling so I only really get a couple points in it until Fungal and Seed are maxed.

Talent wise slow poison is probably the best talent in the game for its cost, get it asap. After that Sprouting (% chance to set off Seed again) is really good and I would get that. For the talent that upgrades the Ult: For the Ancient to be useful its probably in Tower range and since it takes prority it will die fairly quickly, so I would get this talent last. Also you don't really want to delay it blowing up since that is the best part of the Ult. Overall the talent is mediocre.

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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#12 Post by Perhaps »

I wouldn't say not having max skills as soon as possible is a huge waste. I say getting an unnecessary amount of something is a big waste. Considering most skills increase cost every level, and quite a bit of skills "do the trick" before maxxed. Anything more would be a waste, you may as well aim for more functionality. Arcane Archer is a good example of that. Ethereal Healing is a good example of not needing max, typically level 2 is all you'll ever need, unless your opponent makes habit of using a spell on your healing ally. Nightmare usually only needs level 4 or 5 to solo and army with. Just some examples.
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#13 Post by Leek »

Those are valid points, but Nightmare and Etherial Healing aren't main skills. There both major 1 point wonders.

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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#14 Post by DarkNemesis »

You both have valid points imo. Any whether or not you max out 1 or 2 skills vs equally lvling 3 or 4 is largely dependent on two things: the enemy heroes, and what hero you are. Therefore, I would consider it wrong to say always max out 2 points, of any category. Nehpilium is a good example of this, although I tend to do the opposite with him, namely maxing out Life Tap, which spells major pub smashing combined with a 6 level heal, 6 level retaliate, and massed str/armor.
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#15 Post by Perhaps »

I wouldn't consider Ethereal healing not a main skill. I know I'll pick Arcane Archer specifically so I can lame Tavern Heroes on Candelburg. Meteor you don't need to max, if you get the max level of the talent, at level 5 Meteor can two shot towers and getting another doesn't change the fact. The only thing you'd benefit from getting the other point is increasing the cost of repairing the towers if they do so. Ethereal Healing, only needs like 2 levels to be near or peak effectiveness, Familure only needs level 4 to be able to do entangling roots, Ice wall only needs one level to be a wall (A double edged sword if you ask me, a short example is using it to block army thereafter Nephilim pulls Archer or allies with execute to the other side of it), now the only move of Arcane Archers that you will want max points if you go for, is Mass Haste, which I certainly wouldn't consider a primary skill.
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#16 Post by DarkNemesis »

Ok so I've been doing some careful notification while playing Tyrant and, for the most part, have come to a census on, what I think, is the best way to play him.

Tanking, I think, is the best way to go. Leek disagrees and thinks massing str on him is stupid. I think it has some benefits, plus, I'm not necessarily talking about mass str, although it does play a crucial role.

An str-dmg hybrid build is more what I'm aiming for.

For items the orb of furry is a must have. The shock wave is very nice for when they are stunned/slowed :). I had -25 armor on creeps, really insane, and that was only level four. This, combined with a high level shield, makes any push virtually useless. A max out shield can easily acquire just, if not more gold than cataclysm. Ultimate I don't get, rather useless in this situation. Frigid Blast is good too, though you only want a couple of points into this at most. I aim for 2-3. points in that. But you want to concentrate on maxing Shatter and extras into shield and cataclysm first. I've heard some people think shatter is dumb, I would beg to differ. Cataclysm hits a little harder, yes, but the cooldown is far too long to be totally effective against heroes. This is why I would switch between cataclysm and shield for creep killing, aiming for around 3-4 points each. Shatter, on the other hand, has a very quick cooldown.You might say doing this will reward me less gold. But as I stated earlier, shield+cataclysm is just as good for farming, maybe better. The dot dmg is really high, and with the added int, it gets even better. Aside from the fury orb, str/warriors rings are a good idea. These not only increase the dmg output of shatter, but added the tanking effect already acquired by combined shatter (armor reduction)+shield and catacylsm. Crystal I'd say into str and attack dmg. With a extra into block and Frigid Blast talent so you don't have to run back all the time.

So here's my lineup:

Shatter 6 points
Shield 3-4 points
Cataclysm 3-4 points
Frigid Blast 2-3 points
Ult Don't bother, rather horrible.


items: aim for combining warriors and strength rings. A orb of furry is nice to have also, if you've got the money. This allows you to get shatter and cataclysm up, as well as doing some extra melee dmg while their slowed/stunned and even outliving them to boot!

That's my theory. Any thoughts?

-Edit
Changed some theories, but close to the original specifications.
Last edited by DarkNemesis on January 26th, 2009, 1:05 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#17 Post by DarkNemesis »

Did another test with my theory. Seemed to work very well. Was doing 65ish dmg per second with +5 ice shield and around 110 Int. Pretty good imo. Also had around 180 strength and was getting close to 500 dmg with +6 shatter, and a -25 armor reduction. Very nice. Farmed like nuts with shield.

Btw, Asmigdor's innate is really bad-ass if used correctly.
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#18 Post by Leek »

Personally I think your build while effective is going about it the wrong way. Shatter is Tyrants worse skill (when playing competent peeople)

One reason, its damage isn't that great compared to cataclysm (unless I'm wrong, but once again) and Cataclysm is one of the biggest AoEs in the game. For this reason alone Cataclysm should be maxed.

Next I usually max shield, if for no other reason that it helps you survive longer and its a better anti-melee. I usually get 1-2 levels of Frigid Blast, now I use this to interrupt channeling spells, spawn some frozen mana (with 1 talent they heal for 300ish and give 100ish mana). Frigid Blast can be used on caster creeps to refill your mana and hp.

Now about Deep Freeze his Ult. Here I think your about as wrong as you can be. Currently I would say it is the strongest Ult in the entire game. At level 4 it stuns Heros for 6 seconds, does about a 1000ish damage, stuns buildings/creeps for 12 seconds, as has an enormous range, about 1200. All this in an under 4 second cast time. If you aren't using this skill to its fullest (it can easily turn a mediocre push into a base destroying push) you not playing Tyrant correctly.

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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#19 Post by DarkNemesis »

Leek wrote:Personally I think your build while effective is going about it the wrong way. Shatter is Tyrants worse skill (when playing competent peeople)

One reason, its damage isn't that great compared to cataclysm (unless I'm wrong, but once again) and Cataclysm is one of the biggest AoEs in the game. For this reason alone Cataclysm should be maxed.

Next I usually max shield, if for no other reason that it helps you survive longer and its a better anti-melee. I usually get 1-2 levels of Frigid Blast, now I use this to interrupt channeling spells, spawn some frozen mana (with 1 talent they heal for 300ish and give 100ish mana). Frigid Blast can be used on caster creeps to refill your mana and hp.

Now about Deep Freeze his Ult. Here I think your about as wrong as you can be. Currently I would say it is the strongest Ult in the entire game. At level 4 it stuns Heros for 6 seconds, does about a 1000ish damage, stuns buildings/creeps for 12 seconds, as has an enormous range, about 1200. All this in an under 4 second cast time. If you aren't using this skill to its fullest (it can easily turn a mediocre push into a base destroying push) you not playing Tyrant correctly.
Leek, while you make some valid and seeming logical points, your clearly not thinking outside the box.

Shatter is a great ability, one of Tyrant's best. Why? Well, first of all, it hits pretty hard. Its not uncommon to get 500+ dmg with under 200 Str. which is easy with Tyrant. Second, its half the mana cost of Cataclysm. Third, its got way shorter cooldown. Way shorter. I can get two hits of Shatter for every one of Cataclysm. So I'm actually doing around +400 more dmg, for the same time and cost. Fourth, the armor reduction is nuts. I four-shotted harpy using max-out shatter armor reduction. And if you use next to a whole bunch of spawn, omg. They take like 50% more dmg. Shatter is awesome, don't know why you don't like it.

Don't get me wrong, Cataclysm is a great ability too, actually shatter wouldn't be half as good without it. Use the slow and beat one them with Shatter! I usually aim for 3 points into Cataclysm and Shield, and, of course, maxed out Shatter. This allows me to acquire lots of gold, while still keeping my hero-killing ability in check. Also, you'll notice Shatter is oriented towards heroes, Cataclysm, not so much. One to two points is sufficient with Frigid Blast.

Now to address his ultimate, were, I think, you are perhaps the most mistaken and confused. To the point: his ultimate sucks, its a direct rip-off of Grand Rune, and a poor one at that (sorry Yak.) Actually, those are the words of Thermie, a kid I frequently play EotA with, he agrees, Tyrant's ult is trash. But whatever.

Yes! That's just the point Leek, its good at level four, not one or even two! Four. Honestly, I don't see how any ability and be good if it takes three upgrades to get there! Makes no sense man. Ultimate's are special, that's why they're called ultimate's. Because they are something more than the standard. But this is not the case. Yes, his Ult might be pretty good at level 45, so what? I can tank a base by level 35 without it. And, actually, by that level anyway, most tanks are able to straight melee a base, and do it fast. The stun is pointless, if your (not you, someone in general) are stupid enough to sit there while its being channeled for a 6 seconds, in other words, you got 6 seconds to get out of there, I'm sorry, but you deserve to die. The Ice stun on towers isn't bad, but that nowhere near makes up for the shittiness of his Ultimate, sorry.

And no, Cataclysm is nowhere near one of the biggest AoE's in the game. It does dmg in a line, Leek. Try Caustic Breath, or Nightmare.
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#20 Post by Leek »

I was pointing out how broken it was at level 4. At level 1 it starts off with 3-4 second heroes stun and 6-8 second creep/building stun. If you don't think this is amazing I can't help you. Yes the skill is a rip off of GR, but its about 10 times better then GR too. Just because its similar doesn't make it crap. The main thing is you get the channel time to under 4 seconds, so you frigid blast+Ult = a lot of dead heroes.

Your right that Shatter does a lot more damage, however a good hero will easily out range Tyrant because hes so slow and big.

Cataclysm is the longest AoE and its stupid wide, its bigger the Caustic Breath

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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#21 Post by DarkNemesis »

Leek wrote:I was pointing out how broken it was at level 4. At level 1 it starts off with 3-4 second heroes stun and 6-8 second creep/building stun. If you don't think this is amazing I can't help you. Yes the skill is a rip off of GR, but its about 10 times better then GR too. Just because its similar doesn't make it crap. The main thing is you get the channel time to under 4 seconds, so you frigid blast+Ult = a lot of dead heroes.

Your right that Shatter does a lot more damage, however a good hero will easily out range Tyrant because hes so slow and big.

Cataclysm is the longest AoE and its stupid wide, its bigger the Caustic Breath
Length, not width. And personally, I'd rather have width, more gold!
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#22 Post by Leek »

1. Its still one of the wider AoEs.
2. You can use it when creeps are moving or crossing a bridge to kill all of them, more then caustic breath.
3. The area of Cataclysm is bigger then caustic breath, easily. If you have problems figuring out how to aim it (imagine a long rectagular shape) then you have bigger problems then I can help you with.

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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#23 Post by DarkNemesis »

Leek wrote:1. Its still one of the wider AoEs.
2. You can use it when creeps are moving or crossing a bridge to kill all of them, more then caustic breath.
3. The area of Cataclysm is bigger then caustic breath, easily. If you have problems figuring out how to aim it (imagine a long rectagular shape) then you have bigger problems then I can help you with.
1. Again, you are wrong here. I'll compile a list later and get back to you. It does dmg a line, Leek, not a circle, not a square, not a cone, a line, meaning its thinner, not wider.
2. Your second arguement is pointless and weak.
3. The length is longer, yes your right there. But the width is not. I strongly urge you to check it out before replying. As you seen to think otherwise.

Look Leek, I respect your opinion, and you seen to have a good knwoledge of EotA. But your also starting to sound like your don't know what you talking about. Cataclysm is a pretty good ability. Better than most AoE's ONLY because of the slow. Cuastic breath kills more unit=its got an overall bigger AoE. You really need to start learning this.
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#24 Post by CryptLord1234 »

DarkNemesis wrote:Caustic breath kills more unit=its got an overall bigger AoE.
Actually, no, that's not true. AoE = Area of Effect. Caustic Breath kills more units means that it's stronger, not that it's got a bigger area of effect. AoE = target area where it hits. I find it kinda funny that you argue this when you yell at Leek saying that it's not wider because it's in a line, when you then go on to say it's a bigger AoE because it deals more damage. You're contradicting yourself. Say what you mean to say.
DarkNemesis wrote:Again, you are wrong here. I'll compile a list later and get back to you. It does dmg a line, Leek, not a circle, not a square, not a cone, a line, meaning its thinner, not wider.
It's interesting that you say that like there aren't different thickness "lines". You can choose how wide it is in the World Editor -- It COULD have a pretty good AoE.
DarkNemesis wrote:2. Your second arguement is pointless and weak.
You say this, and then talk about Tyrant's ability to earn money. Killing creeps gets money pretty effectively; the ability to kill creeps in a line would, I'd imagine, make it easier. Unless AoEs make killing multiple creeps harder. . . @_@
DarkNemesis wrote:3. The length is longer, yes your right there. But the width is not. I strongly urge you to check it out before replying. As you seen to think otherwise.
Since you refer to the width of a spell a lot. . .A lot of length, with little width, is the same as a lot of width, with little length: They're both pretty useless. Better to have a mix of the two, which all of Tyrant's spells have.
"L4D2 promises to set a new benchmark for co-op games. . ." Like L4D promised to hand us new maps, survivors, and zombies? We've seen how that works.

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DarnYak
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Re: "Random Races" Fel Horde

#25 Post by DarnYak »

The width on cataclysm is probably too high - I tend to fill in random numbers, then come back and play with them once i've seen them in action. I don't recall changing the width, so its probably abnormally large.

DarnYak

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