EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

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EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#1 Post by DarnYak »

Lich changes finally!

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#2 Post by watermelon »

Initial Impressions from Lich:
  • Passive debuffing Mark looks like it's strong and useless at the same time since you won't always have the debuff on a unit that you want, particularly with AoE Rend. Feels too strong as is with the current talent increasing %. Personally, I wish the mechanic was a little bit less random like the chance getting slightly higher if the unit was at lower health or something else.
  • Innate buff seemed bugged (look below), but it does seem like a pretty strong buff for Lich, particularly movement speed, and making it more useful to invest in attack damage.
  • Rend Soul buff: Damage is more threatening at low levels, though it seems like it won't be easy to use against heroes without support so it might not be too broken. Definitely relevant at high levels with a more usable casting range.
  • Moratorium: Doesn't seem like one of EotA's exceptional one-point skills. Will have to test if it's actually worth investing in. I also couldn't tell if kill credit was being rewarded.
  • Gravebind buff: less mana cost made me less reluctant in using it. Mana drain looks like it's more irritating, especially when it interrupts DW's drain.
  • Bonestorm: Didn't notice them blocking Lich's movement as much as the fat orcs did, though they are still good at making roadblocks when you don't necessarily want them.
Bugs/Text
  • Lich's Innate buff seems to last forever. It probably should have some kind of cap from kills, and if you do, please have some kind of graphic indication or something so that Lich knows when it's fully charged.
  • Mark of Reaper doesn't trigger Gravebind's effect.
  • Innate doesn't mention duration for Mark of Reaper
EDIT: 11/2/13
Mort seems to act strangely with magic resistance as it doesn't seem to auto fatal the enemy hero.
It feels like AoE Rend Soul is harder to use.
TC's degen seems rather low for early levels, though later levels seem more respectable.

EDIT 2: 11/9/13
  • Icinerate and Chasten ignore pathing.
  • Storm's ult knockback removes blitz. I remember Maelstrom, when it interrupted, did this too but I'm not sure about current Mael.
  • I have the impression that Soul Strike isn't as threatening as simply spamming Incinerate. I'm not necessarily saying the -s damage is wrong; it's mostly just very hard to pull off the full 6 seconds when most heroes just run away.
  • I need to post a replay with the enemy AI buying workers from my base. It happened late-game on Kedge on the front left base.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#3 Post by Jouven »

I did play Lich and... I think it's worse than before in terms of playability.
1. Being not able to trigger the mark when you want sucks. This, I think it's the worse aspect now in lich, rollback or up the % of mark happening, put talents... because it sucks not being able to plan the nuking. But maybe it's just me and you want us to play lich without expecting to use rend on marked units and using it more on none marked and that's why rend hits harder. But now it lacks mana because no rend on marked units and lacks "AoE" because you can mark a unit in the middle of a group.
2. Innate active skill lasts forever (bug) instead of 6 secs.
3. "Range now scales with skill level, to 300-750 from 600" update the description or something because it isn't an obvious thing. Sucks a lot at the beginning but it's pretty good on the later levels.
4. Ultimate has changed?
5. Expose talent mentions remorselese
6. Gravebind is better, to the point it's an okish skill, it isn't great either.
7. Mora its good to save heroes from dying, but only on the later levels because you have a bigger window of time. I wouldn't take it tbh, it requires more micro than the other skills and its VERY situational.

Current lich seems to encourage attack speed, which is weird because he must have one of the lowest attack speed of all the heroes, for more mark chance and because innate duration is infinite (yay crits). Rend hits pretty hard, but it doesn't scale that well on the later levels, and forget about using it on a marked unit because it wont happen, the unit will be nearly dead when it pops or won't happen at all.

Did a single player to test lich more, 4 easy ais not "i" against 3 insane ais and me... they steamrolled us, I don't know what's going on with the allied ais but they suck.
Lich with a "fast" attack speed triggers mark ¿okish?, I think on the average is worse than before, because you can't plan the use of rend.

Bug? Mark happens on magic immune grunts but you can't rend them.

As always... remake rue's ultimate.

PD: Almighty NERF NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooOOO.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#4 Post by DarnYak »

Mort seems to act strangely with magic resistance as it doesn't seem to auto fatal the enemy hero.
Resistance or Immunity? Kills should be setting them to 1 health then dealing 10k damage.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#5 Post by Jouven »

Three things:
1 First Stun lag still there.
2 Moratorium effects get passed to the clone, talking about time cleric here, if you change from one to another, on yesterday's game I switched to avoid my hero death but wm did cast moratorium on me before the switch, so when I had control on the clone after some secs I did receive all the damage leaving me at 1 hp ~~, when I upload the videos of the weekend I'll put a link on the exact moment when it happened.
3 If a clone is on the mainbase and you switch back an forth you can get the regen of the castle on the clone you are switching with for some seconds, you can repeat the process for profit.

I think Time cleric needs a little bit more nuking power or more cc, since she has no AoE or no imba tanking like the other tanks, I mean on situations where she gets surrounded with anything, e.g the weakest of the creeps or the murlocs, and has no clones she is pretty dead. Imo lower the cd of the ultimate a bit =) Btw witch time do the clones start getting damage before you need to switch?

PD: only point 1 matters to me tbh.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#6 Post by watermelon »

It was magic resistance from items. I'm not so sure about what exactly happened since Bane may have just used his innate to heal back a ton of health.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#7 Post by DarnYak »

Well I can't find anything wrong with the Moratorium kill code, I'm going to need more information before I can fix it.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#8 Post by watermelon »

Gens should get some kind of self destruct ability rather than having to have an enemy destroy it so that you can build gens elsewhere.

I'm curious about why you decided to nerf AoO. I feel that the main complaint about AoO being too strong is from the randomness of the damage which can be pretty ridiculous at higher levels but also isn't the most reliable way of pking. An initial AoO is generally easy to pull off with Blitz, but following up on a kill, which usually requires another AoO, is hard without support or having blitz again. I don't agree with one-shotting enemies that don't invest in items, but that could be reduced by lowering the randomness instead.

I also want to mention that blue has a disadvantage on kedge because the cannon tower in the middle is taken first by the tower commander rather than the arrow tower which is more useful to hold the left lane with.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#9 Post by DarnYak »

I'm curious about why you decided to nerf AoO.
Because no hero should be able to 1 shot another hero at full health (outside of ridiculous circumstances), which is what happened to me several times last week.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#10 Post by Executor »

I agree with nerfing AoO, but I think using damage caps is the less popular solution in my opinion. I think it would be cool to have a "Gem of True Sight" type item in the game that doesn't fully reveal invisible units but, instead, reveals a translucent portrait from a more limited distance. I guess that might be hard to code and too much trouble.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#11 Post by DarnYak »

I think it would be cool to have a "Gem of True Sight" type item in the game that doesn't fully reveal invisible units but, instead, reveals a translucent portrait from a more limited distance. I guess that might be hard to code and too much trouble.
That wouldn't really help, in the game I was playing I was dryad and I generally had vision of it coming a long way off. Nets negate the back requirement (and that you don't get a full hit didn't matter since it was still sufficient to 1 shot me) and even if that's not used you can easily end up in a situation where its stand and fight and die or try to run and instantly die.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#12 Post by Jouven »

I think "Attack of Opportunity's damage is now capped at half of the target's maximum life "... from being able to one shot someone at full hp to only do half of the damage at most is a really big nerf IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... rPk#t=4067 link to the moratorium owns time cleric part, now that I re watch it does a really weird behavior, like it keeps my life at the same point even when I'm switching. That infil (easy I) 1999 hit daaaummm!!

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#13 Post by watermelon »

It's kind of hard to see what's exactly going on since you aren't watching both of your forks, but I don't think a bug occurred.
it keeps my life at the same point even when I'm switching.
Pretty sure that's okay since you still got your health back afterwards; after all Moratorium is supposed to keep you at the same life for its duration. The clone you swapped to got your health, which would be correct since it wasn't affected by Moratorium. It rapid heals itself after the stun finishes, but then got AoOed.

I also don't think a damage cap is the best way to nerf AoO. I would rather see the random scaling be reduced to something more reasonable.
you can easily end up in a situation where its stand and fight and die or try to run and instantly die.
I don't think this situation is really likely. AoO has a 10s cooldown; after Inf uses it, her only other offensive option against heroes is auto-attacking. In the meantime, most heroes have something they can do that threaten Inf, generally easy to do with her fragility, or to escape. Generally an Inf player can't do much against players who are prepared.

Dryad in particular only has one weakness in facing off against Inf: low health, which can be easily remedied with an Angelstone. All her skills make AC difficult to kill off, save for being CCed to death or instant killed. Once AoO is used, Gale and AC's fast movespeed make it very easy to put distance. Putting owls near towers makes only suicidal Infs want to chase you into a base. Roots generally mess up pkers, unless they're very fast. Geomancy can provide a movespeed bonus or strength. As a last resort, she can still use her heal, which exists for situations like these, or Wisp.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#14 Post by DarnYak »

Pretty sure that's okay since you still got your health back afterwards; after all Moratorium is supposed to keep you at the same life for its duration. The clone you swapped to got your health, which would be correct since it wasn't affected by Moratorium
Just fyi I made moratorium forcibly swap with TC fork's so this isn't an issue anymore. It still stays on the original TC, but it won't register a change in health as damage or healing.
I don't think this situation is really likely. AoO has a 10s cooldown; after Inf uses it, her only other offensive option against heroes is auto-attacking. In the meantime, most heroes have something they can do that threaten Inf, generally easy to do with her fragility, or to escape. Generally an Inf player can't do much against players who are prepared.
This assumes its only inf you are facing. Alternately it assumes you can kill her before she has can do another AoO, after (most likely) taken a big hit opener, since once its off cd its a near guaranteed death if you try to run.


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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#15 Post by Executor »

DarnYak wrote:
I think it would be cool to have a "Gem of True Sight" type item in the game that doesn't fully reveal invisible units but, instead, reveals a translucent portrait from a more limited distance. I guess that might be hard to code and too much trouble.
That wouldn't really help, in the game I was playing I was dryad and I generally had vision of it coming a long way off. Nets negate the back requirement (and that you don't get a full hit didn't matter since it was still sufficient to 1 shot me) and even if that's not used you can easily end up in a situation where its stand and fight and die or try to run and instantly die.

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I was thinking of it as a separate issue and an alternative to the current detection of invisible units. This also reduces reliance on heroes using owls and such.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#16 Post by DarnYak »

Ah fair enough, its just not realistic to do in WC3.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#17 Post by jamn455 »

You should put some more ways to see invisible units in the game, there are clearly not enough options for heroes without an innate to be able to see invisible stuff.
Line 'em up.
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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#18 Post by DarnYak »

I think you miss the point, its an interesting way to do a lesser form of invisibility detection, so you could so something different like make dryad owls turn red whenever an invisible hostile is near, but you won't know who (admittedly, you can usually guess) or be able to target them/know their exact spot.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#19 Post by watermelon »

This assumes its only inf you are facing.
In general, getting ganged up on by at least one hero considered a pker while being alone is pretty hard to escape from without some clever shenanigans. I wouldn't say Inf is OP for being able to clean up heroes that are low on health; her role seems suited to punishing players like that.

When I mentioned what heroes can do to Inf after her first AoO, I assume that they're not just going to stand around and retaliate while Inf tries to auto attack them to death; they should be retreating to put Inf at a less advantageous position while still casting the useful spells at their disposal.

Let's say Inf AoO an enemy hero without killing it. Assume that she used Blitz to pull off this first AoO, otherwise AoO would come from CC and that's generally not as threatening unless life luck happens.
Without factoring items since the other hero can theoretically do the same, Inf has two options after her first AoO to chase a target: Blink and Blitz. Blink is a standard dash and most players should be able to deal with that since other pkers pretty much have the same thing.
A second Blitz may guarantee the second AoO, and the moral should be that you should have some kind of vision when facing against Inf, but I think an important point to that is that Inf has been waiting at least 30 seconds (whatever Blitz's cooldown is) being invisible. That means during that time, she's being pretty useless for her team whereas other pkers can probably push a lane or at least fight off enemy heroes in a lane.

This is all mostly hypothetical though I still feel that the current Inf is really only successful against lesser experienced players.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#20 Post by Jouven »

Infil blitz seems on a 45sec CD, anyways, you can chain blitz, the cd starts when you use the skill not when you break invis, so you can go blitz wait those 45 doing nothing, AOO, blitz wait few secs and AOO again, I think this strat has a high chance of killing a none bulky hero aka the heroes infil would nearly one hit, but it makes you waste 45 secs every time, so in the end its no good IMO.

About the ability of being unable to do anything except move around when she is invisible, wasn't she, in the past, able to place mines while on invis?

Is the nerf on this version(1.15a2) or its due to the next verison? because I did some testing with infil and..., the situation a 920 hp aero, gets hit by 771 AOO, how does the cap at half of the target's maximum life work? or are we stupid and we been whining for something that hasn't happened yet?

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#21 Post by DarnYak »

It's in 1.15b.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#22 Post by Scheba »

I think I found a bug (or at least an undocumented feature): when I walked over a Catapulting Sigil, my Infiltrator lost her invisibility from Blitz. I suspect (but haven't tested it yet) that other effects that push, pull or throw heroes might do the same, and that Blitz is not the only invisibility skill affected. The following lists might not be exhaustive.

Potential skills breaking invisiblility:
  • Catapulting Sigil
  • Chasten
  • Maelstrom
  • Displacement Field
  • Blast Arrow
  • Incinerate
  • Impale
  • Gale
  • Ice Lance with Icy Blast talent
  • Swoop
  • Anchor
  • High Tide
  • Erupt
  • Geyser
  • Zen Shot
  • Ravenous Dive
  • Sentinel (the mini gargoyles, not the owls)
  • Mastery of Power: Execute
  • Avalanche
  • Thunderstrike
Potential sources of invisibility:
  • Blitz
  • Elusive Flair
  • Infiltrator's Cloak of Shadows talent
  • Flank
  • Decoy
  • Geomancy: Forestwalk
  • Spiritwatcher Totem with Ancestral Fury effect
  • Stalker (they are spell immune while invisible but some things might still work on them)
  • Swoop with Cloud Cover talent
  • Spore Cloud
  • Mastery of Shadow: Shadowveil
  • Darkstride
  • Potion of Invisibility
I haven't tested if fear effects also break invisibility, but I don't think they do.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15a2 Download

#23 Post by DarnYak »

I think I found a bug (or at least an undocumented feature): when I walked over a Catapulting Sigil, my Infiltrator lost her invisibility from Blitz. I suspect (but haven't tested it yet) that other effects that push, pull or throw heroes might do the same, and that Blitz is not the only invisibility skill affected.
I'm pretty sure its excusive to blitz (maybe dwarf's darkstride too) and if the cause is what I suspect then its getting classified as an undocumented feature.

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