EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

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EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#1 Post by DarnYak »

Part 1 of the balance update. Expect many bugs.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#2 Post by watermelon »

Note this post will be reserved as post for bugs and other rants.
Last Updated: 10/27/13

Bugs
  • Base gens still cost gold.
  • Tether doesn't seem to damage flying units.
  • ? Feasts aren't dispellable.
  • ? Mockery, at least when used against the AI, seems to cause them to move faster. This doesn't agree with past behavior.
Tooltips/-s
  • Zen Force gives half of the strength bonus what -s states it should give.
AI
  • Bane doesn't seem to cast Impale consistently.
  • Red Team AI on Stormwail almost never place bottom Ob as they get distracted by shopping.
Balance Concerns
  • Tree - broken; survivability from innate, Timbercurse against buildings,
  • Fenny - broken; prior buffs seem too strong; I don't like the fact that stalkers can always chase off heroes early-game.
  • Gravel - strong, damage and slow from Smash seem high against heroes; can easily farm creeps with Smash, Rockslide, and innate
  • Tyrant - strong; damage from Shatter is rather high combined with armor decrease
  • Scarab - annoying; ult lasts long without being easy to tell when he activates it or when you're affected by it. Personally I feel the effect of getting damaged should end when the ult stops too.
  • Neph - annoying; False Alliance is a troll skill
  • Oracle - ?; I think the Zen Shot nerf should have some kind of compensation since she wasn't a strong hero to begin with.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#3 Post by Dekar »

Does the healthorb still give far too much survivability through massive hp, hp regen and free heals?

Offensive items should be better than defensive items, or else the hero combat ends in boring stalemates.
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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#4 Post by Jouven »

Balance concerns:
About what Wm is saying on the broken heroes subject, there is this thing where some of the best tanks have somehow an effing imba heal... coincidence? I THINK NOT (elder treant spammable innate, bane --> fear + hero stun + heal, colossus heart of the mountain, and on less degree behemoth bite, ember fireballs, chefs feasts and recently fenris because of the dire howl 50% leech damage but at least he is more flimsy, blackguard heal from minion at least is on a long CD and maybe garg's dive too? I don't know).
I mean Bp can heal too but its not that spammable like those I mentioned.
1 About scarab, make the ultimate animation more noticeable at least, I agree with wm that the skill is pretty annoying but I don't mind it that much.
2 About colossus's smash I think the slow effect is so gooood even without the damage.
3 Neph has one of those annoying skills that I think should have its duration decreased like IS brain freeze.
4 Oracle mind stab like I said before does less damage than the auto-attack.
5 How worse SB must be now with no AOE interrupt, the worst hero nuke skill on par with mindstab, the -s numbers behind ss are very wrong, tested today it said like 400dmg per sec, being pretty item stacked, yeah right in my wildest dreams, the real damage its like a 10% of that, this is another case of auto-attack doing more damage than the nuke, heal on a long cd, decoy + invis, which I think AIs ignore entirely, and lastly maybe one of, if not, the best AOE ultimate of the game, it does a better job nuking than ss, well at least it has the ultimate. Make the stun/interrupt on the AOE a talent or something, and about his talents, the hero nuke 2% stun talent is joke.

Not broken but just discovered miasma + anchor its effing imba, you can't kill the anchor ever because your damage output is so small.

Bugs:
1 SB can't entrap souls on the murlocs corpses of the wave crash (is that the name?), it can be pretty misleading because the corpses are there but the skill doesn't work-remove them.
2 The first stun lag it's still there and now there are some weird lag spikes at the beginning of the games.
3 AA Heal level 1 Heals a shitton of damage
4 Knockback pathing is broken, units ignoring cliffs, going over bridges...
5 Rue ignoring pathing

Edit: o yeah I forgot colossus has that other skill that increases strength which does "heal" too and if you time it right with hotm with talents jackpot.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#5 Post by Executor »

In my opinion, High Oracle's attack using Zen Archery level 6 (100% Int converted to damage and 100% mana) felt weak, especially when compared to Mystic Swashbuckler. That's why I suggested a "True Strike" item to help compensate for the low damage compared to many other heroes' abilities. I optimize dps/gold when buying items, and it is easy to see that High Oracle does much less dps than Behemoth using Maw of Death. Even after maxing 3 marketplace items at level 80 and using Talisman of the Sun's active ability and the consumable that increases agility, I was not able to do any significant amount of damage to a level 80 Rune Knight. I imagine the same is true against other tanks.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#6 Post by DarnYak »

Does the healthorb still give far too much survivability through massive hp, hp regen and free heals?

Offensive items should be better than defensive items, or else the hero combat ends in boring stalemates.
I haven't seen any evidence of this being the case. Before when they were purely passive, yes I would agree the life orb was a bit too strong compared to the other bonuses, but now its in combat offensive bonuses vs an interruptible heal over time. If anyone disagrees please contribute.
there is this thing where some of the best tanks have somehow an effing imba heal... coincidence? I THINK NOT
Of course its not, its part of what makes them an effective tank. Prior to them having good self heals they were very non-tanky. Also, Gravel's talent heal is op? What? Treant and Bane's innate's I'll somewhat agree.
About colossus's smash I think the slow effect is so gooood even without the damage.
Just to make sure we're on the same page, the slow effect is dependent upon no damage being done.
AA Heal level 1 Heals a shitton of damage
That's not a bug, it was part of the heal overhaul a while back. Same goes for Dryad heal and...some other I'm forgetting.
Knockback pathing is broken, units ignoring cliffs, going over bridges
Should be fixed already, if its still happening tell me what spells.
Rue ignoring pathing
Same as above, if this is still occurring (and it shouldn't have anything to do with rue himself) I need a replay preferably with a timestamp of when it starts - because there's always a spell effect that triggers pathing getting turned off.
In my opinion, High Oracle's attack using Zen Archery level 6 (100% Int converted to damage and 100% mana) felt weak, especially when compared to Mystic Swashbuckler. That's why I suggested a "True Strike" item to help compensate for the low damage compared to many other heroes' abilities.
True strike isn't a terrible idea but not feasible with WC3's engine - or at least, not with EotA's engine without a massive overhaul. Also I'm pretty sure the conversion is 50% of int, tooltip might be wrong. Oracle got severely nerfed for a reason - around 200 damage auto attacks and 900 damage mindspikes around level 20 is completely insane and unacceptable.
it is easy to see that High Oracle does much less dps than Behemoth using Maw of Death
Melee abilities should generally do less dps then ranged auto attacks, yes.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#7 Post by Executor »

Hmm...around 200 damage auto attacks and 900 damage mindspikes around level 20. I'll go ahead and do a lot more testing to see if this is true and save replay this time.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#8 Post by DarnYak »

Well its not doable now, you'd need to go pre-nerf. I got the numbers from my own replay, but I was too stupid to save it (vs humans, not ai, btw). It's possible it was as late as like 23, but it was around there somewhere and completely insane. BP's Kindle Faith was part of it reaching those numbers, but it was still formidable without it.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#9 Post by Executor »

Okay, so before I do any testing, I need to figure out exactly what you intended to nerf. Was Zen Archery nerfed from 100% to 50% int because High Oracle's auto-attack was too high? Or was it because mindstab's damage was too high and auto-attack wouldn't suffer as much when focusing mostly on obtaining Int (looking at combined dps perspective)? The damage cap on mindstab appears to already address the issue with mindstab's dps, so I assume you think the auto-attack needs to be nerfed as well.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#10 Post by watermelon »

About survivability: against humans, it generally seems more useful to have things like Angelstone, Plate Helm, or stuff like Temporal Buckler than being offensive. Most human players seem better at escaping or thwarting pking attempts than being all-out offensive. It doesn't really help that Almighty perk makes it easier to survive, giving a free 300 max life.

I would say that Gravel's Smash is almost broken; the damage is pretty high against heroes or if missing, the slow effect is also incredibly good due to its very large AoE. It allows Gravel to farm creeps much better than Rockslide as it mostly seems to one-shot them by Level 3.

Oracle is kind of a difficult case since it mostly depends on her being selfish and investing in Int items rather than being a team player, which she seems more geared towards. If she doesn't invest in Int, her pre-nerf overall damage output is rather pitiful, and it looks even more pitiful with the nerfs. If she is selfish, I'll agree that pre-nerf Mindstab was rather ridiculous. It's harder for me to agree with the Zen Shot nerf, but that may be due to my playing style of not trying to conserve mana with her.
Generally, she has abysmal damage output in the beginning, which makes Mindstab and Zen Shot damage look pitiful. What happens later is up to her getting Int items or not.

It would be nice for -s to state the maximum damage Mindstab can deal.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#11 Post by DarnYak »

Executor wrote:Okay, so before I do any testing, I need to figure out exactly what you intended to nerf. Was Zen Archery nerfed from 100% to 50% int because High Oracle's auto-attack was too high? Or was it because mindstab's damage was too high and auto-attack wouldn't suffer as much when focusing mostly on obtaining Int (looking at combined dps perspective)? The damage cap on mindstab appears to already address the issue with mindstab's dps, so I assume you think the auto-attack needs to be nerfed as well.
They both needed to be nerfed, 200 damage auto attacks that early in the game is too high (post nerf it should still be around like 120-140 which is still high) and 900 damage nukes when tanks had like 1200 health is also absurd. Both were individually too strong.
Oracle is kind of a difficult case since it mostly depends on her being selfish and investing in Int items rather than being a team player
Yea, I'm probably going to adjust Mindstab's base damage upward so its more consistent. Undecided whether her auto attack actually needs adjusting.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#12 Post by Jouven »

About colossus's smash I think the slow effect is so gooood even without the damage.
Just to make sure we're on the same page, the slow effect is dependent upon no damage being done.
Yeah but that means that skill has another use, which makes it better than only having slow, which btw does pretty good damage, but I'm fine with the amount of damage, area is pretty small.
Also, Gravel's talent heal is op? What? Treant and Bane's innate's I'll somewhat agree.
Gravel has the regen+armor of the hotm, the heal if you get the talents and the heal of the other skill which raises strength, which it does increase his hp pool healing him in the process, I don't remember if the heal happens when the effect starts or when it wears off but it does heal and is on a short cd. The "problem" here too is that his play style relies on maxing strength and none other stats making him the ¿strength king? making him have a pretty big hp pool.

Talking about "all" his skills using str to scale except hotm and boulder storm, I always wondered why boulder storm doesn't scale with any stat? (same happens with bp's ulti, but at least he can boost evo damage, I don't remember if there are others heroes with the same "problem"). It makes me reluctant to take that kind of skills, but well, my play ¿always? relies on itemization scaling on skills, I suppose that's why I find it odd.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#13 Post by Executor »

Here is one of the first few tests I've done on EotA version 1.14 g6 (pre-nerf). The first set of objectives I have planned are to determine what difficulty of AI best represents a human player (since my internet sucks too much to play online) and to determine gold and level as a function of time (averaging over several games) so I can better optimize dps. After playing several games, I noticed that starting with Insight perk doesn't vary much from starting with Almighty perk (unless rushing pks). My main objective is to see whether or not High Oracle's auto-attack is too high using Zen Archery. The items I get during the game are near optimal for level 30 with Almighty Perk. I purposely don't optimize mindstab's damage since I agree that it should be nerfed. Purple is insane AI and orange is normal AI. I have no intention of winning, and I spend almost all of my gold on items. BTW I expect human players to play better than normal computers despite the benefits the AI gets.

A few things I want to note:
  • The AI usually just stands there and gets hit by my auto-attacks
  • Whenever the AI does attack me, they usually take around half my health off using 1 ability
  • If a human player was playing with Glacial Tyrant and Rune Knight removed or vise versa, I know I would've lost the game much quicker
  • High Oracle's ability to farm gold is relatively poor compared many other heroes
So far, High Oracle's auto attack seems pathetic for a hero that is supposed to be capable of high attack after playing 4 games switching between Almight perk and Insight Perk, but I will perform more tests and see if I can play against human players through LAN. Let me know what you think.
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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#14 Post by DarnYak »

My main objective is to see whether or not High Oracle's auto-attack is too high using Zen Archery. The items I get during the game are near optimal for level 30 with Almighty Perk. I purposely don't optimize mindstab's damage since I agree that it should be nerfed.
I'm not 100% sure what your methodology is but I'm guessing its highest dps, which is not the same thing as maximizing damage. And maximizing individual hit damage is often better for pk'ing since between movement and such you rarely get 100% of your attack time and spike damage is just better.

So the damage numbers here could be a bit higher. There was also no weapon upgrades involved (while crystal is not guaranteed it's still pretty rare you can't have at least 1 and more likely 2 upgrades by level 20) and no BP buff as mentioned before, so these numbers could easily have another +50 or more to them. Snapshots are taken at relatively high or full mana.

Numbers:
Level 20: 47-60 + 89
Level 21: 47-60 + 103
Level 25: 49-62 + 113 (Health: 1160)
Level 30: 55-68 + 136 (75% mana, Health: 1700)
Level 32: 56-69 + 174 (Health: 1820)
At this point you convert some of your items into attack speed so I stopped there.

And just for comparison, the two AI melee heroes also, which weren't building for attack but had more items. Health isn't recorded since they're AI's that pretty much stacked health.

RK:
Level 28: 70-80+13
Level 41: 77-87+19

Tyrant:
Level 23: 78-83+13
Level 37: 96-106 + 34
So far, High Oracle's auto attack seems pathetic for a hero that is supposed to be capable of high attack
Except she's very clearly capable of hitting the numbers I described before, which were clearly too high. She takes out a hero with equal health in about 12 seconds of auto attacks - that's higher dps then most skills do with optimal usage, and this is without mindstab factored in.

Also, I'm not sure who you were fighting in the other games but it couldn't have gotten much worse than this one. Two heavily armed tanks both with shields is pretty much the perfect counter.

I am however curious to see just how brutal a more optimized team could turn out. Oracle + Tact (banner + also strong auto attack) + BP (kindle) + Tyrant (for shatter, or maybe another armor reduction like ember) + ...something else.
•Whenever the AI does attack me, they usually take around half my health off using 1 ability
Generaly they shouldn't be allowed to get close in the first place, and whether shatter is OP is a separate discussion.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#15 Post by Executor »

Yes, I’m optimizing dps rather than damage alone, and ultimately dps is what matters. I agree that doing large bursts of damage is more helpful for pks under the condition that not much dps is lost. In the long run, agility items will be more valuable than damage or int items and don’t forget the bonus movement speed and armor. In the replay, doing large bursts of damage didn’t matter since I was hitting with most of my attacks for a good amount of time. My next replay should be more optimized since I only used estimates in the last one, and I’ll start with Almighty perk for now on. Realistically speaking, most people probably won’t optimize dps.

It’s no surprise that the normal AI can afford more items with 70% reduction in price, but that makes it more realistic to a human player. I know I can farm more gold with Glacial Tyrant than High Oracle.

I’ll let you know that out of all the heroes I’ve played with in EotA, I’ve played with High Oracle the most. I’ve tested several different item builds and team compositions, and I’ve never been able to kill an equally geared hero in 12 seconds with auto-attacks alone. If I’m lucky, there will be no healer or shielder nearby, and I’ll be able to force the AI to retreat after attacking for a minute or so (I might be exaggerating for AI but probably not exaggerating for skilled human player). This became most apparent to me in games where everyone was over level 50 and maxed in gear.

Actually, some of the other games I played went worse for me than this one (such as when I was playing against Crest Witch and Gargoyle). Yes, High Oracle can benefit a lot from the buffs granted from banner or kindle, but so does everyone else, and there are much stronger team compositions out there. In any case, I don’t think High Oracle’s auto-attack should depend on being able to acquire certain buffs. It should be reliable without assistance.

It is actually pretty easy to get close to a ranged hero, especially with all the stuns and slows in the game. Zephyr totem’s or Raider’s Orb’s teleport, Flute of the Wind's movement speed buff, Net, and the root from Dryad’s Gift are some items that can assist in that too. As you saw in the replay, all they had to do was hit me a few times to get me running back to heal. Just a couple of hits from Rune Knight’s attack could reduce my armor to negative values, and Glacial Tyrant has ways to slow and stun me. Those are not the worst heroes for me to be up against. I worry about being back-stabbed by Infiltrator, Wolf can dreamrun then slow then do major damage, there is no point trying to escape Mystic Swashbuckler, and Prince Rue can use movement speed aura (just to name a few). Best case scenario for me would be to hide behind a team and maintain distance.

Edit: I tested Talisman of the Sun's buff and noticed that the bonus damage didn't apply to Zen Archery's bonus damage. I'm guessing the same is true for kindle and banner. I assume those buffs can be dispelled if needed or nerfed if too strong...

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#16 Post by watermelon »

Played a game with insanes using Lich. Some thoughts:
  • It's actually kind of viable to use Remorseless and stack attack damage. Not sure if the damage output can be considered too strong since it is a buff, though on a relatively short cooldown and long duration.
  • Raider's Orb gives Lich much needed mobility for hero killing.
  • Wealthy seems to be a very useful perk on Stormwail. Lich can also farm to some extent if the Dark Altar talent is obtained.
  • Doesn't seem like Bonestorm is threatening in any aspect besides loud sound effect. It seems like the skeletons are too far behind when compared to the AoE that counters them: ~225 health around Level 1, ~700 health around Level 4. Worth mentioning is that dispel staff pretty much one-shots them. Their stats aren't very useful for sieging since they will most likely crumble within some rounds of tower hits while doing pitiful damage in return, if they even decided to attack buildings. Perhaps they're okay for defensive purposes, if only to stall.
  • My laptop hates end-game lag.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#17 Post by Executor »

I finally got around to doing the 2nd replay but could only play against AI. This time I chose Candleburg and Draft Picked for kindle and banner with all Insane AI. The enemy team gains an early advantage with some hero kills, and Icespinner continues to taunt me with its peculiar inventory selection. It seems like Glacial Tyrant hogged the items and much gold was spent on mercenaries. Towards the end, I crit for 900 damage…under normal circumstances I shouldn’t be able to get that strong and probably wouldn’t be able to get Marketplace items in time. Also, like watermelon said, High Oracle would need to be greedy. Overall, I still don’t think High Oracle’s attack is too strong. I expect that a carry-type hero could at least be that strong like in LoL or DotA. But maybe I am wrong? Whatever your decision is, I'll just accept it.

Improved Item Selection (ordered from top to bottom):
  • Executioner's Hood
  • Guiding Gloves
  • Dryad's Gift +3
  • Executioner's Hood +3
  • Sorcerer's Robe
  • Talisman of the Sun +2
  • Dryad's Gift +5
  • Dexterous Ring
  • Save 350 gold, sell Ring and Robe, upgrade to Guiding Gloves +3
  • Robe and Ring
  • Save 70 gold, sell Ring and Robe, upgrade to Talisman of the Sun +3
  • Robe and Ring
  • Save 350 gold, sell Ring and Robe, upgrade to Executioner’s Hood +5
  • Robe and Ring
  • Save 1050 gold, sell Ring and Robe, upgrade to Guiding Gloves +5
  • Robe and Ring
  • Save 220 gold, sell Ring and Robe, buy Zephire Totem
  • Dexterous Ring
  • To be continued...
Stats for average game at Gloomreap Mire (pre-nerf, almighty perk, auto-attack only):Image

Base attack speed is 2.65 seconds per attack. Buff pertains only to Talisman of the Sun's buff (starts at level 22 in chart). Leveling rate is a little more than 1 level per minute. In the replay, I level up slower and gain less gold compared to Gloomreap Mire. An interesting item to get is Orb of Fury, which is better DPS against units but not heroes.
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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#18 Post by DarnYak »

Not going to analyze it this moment, but I will say up front thanks, I wish more people put effort like that in, maybe eota would be actually balanced if so. ;P

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#19 Post by Executor »

I'm glad to help. I see a lot of good ideas in this game, but balancing can be tough.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.15 Download

#20 Post by DarnYak »

BTW, lets do anonymous games tomorrow.

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