EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

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DarnYak
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EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#1 Post by DarnYak »

New stuff that may desync!

Also the AI can draft now. Currently bans/teams for it are completely random, but I hope to add some presets soon.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#2 Post by watermelon »

I've been thinking about Neph some more. =P

In order of priority:
Retaliate can deal loads of damage to towers. You should at least reduce the damage to being 50%.
Have you done anything with Close Wounds dispelling wounds throughout its whole duration or was it intentional?
I don't think the cooldown increases for Scorch and Duskslash were really necessary. The one-target spells by themselves are still weak while Neph still relies on spamming his spells to PK.
Could you reduce the trash ults mana/cooldown so that they are more reasonable? You could at least redeem that global vision debuff in this way, but Betrayal is still probably beyond help.
I still wish that Plunder did something against units because it's the only normal skill that can't target them. The extra versatility would be useful to Neph who can't really do much efficiently against creeps.
Evasion's mana cost scaling sucks. =P Level 1 is much better than Level 6 in terms of payoff.
Most useful skill he has in each skill cycle: Retaliate, Scintillate, Duskslash, Life Tap, Execute with Blood being the most useful followed by War and Shadow for damage output. Fire is pretty much utility and Neph sadly can't accomplish too much by investing in it to do anything.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#3 Post by watermelon »

More love for Neph:
Fix Neph's -s:
Duskslash says something about mana drain rather than damage. Hopefully should also say included shadow damage.
Fireballs says something about number of fireballs thrown as 0. Just remove it.
Not sure about execute, but it feels like the damage displayed is less than what's dealt.

Fenny seems to have trouble doing stuff early-game; his stalkers are stronger than him... =P
Like I've mentioned earlier, Rend Soul doesn't feel strong until late-game due to cooldown scaling.
Mindstab can scale to do one-shots which mostly occurs when the game becomes one-sided.

AI Oracle is inconsistent in her usage of the innate and ult.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#4 Post by Scheba »

Some things I noticed in test games:

Bugs:
  • requiem's self heal talent doesn't work reliably: sometimes the healing amount is only what the skill tooltip says, without the increase from the talent; this occurs roughly (I'm not sure if it's exactly) on every 2nd cast of the healing skill
  • when clicking on ethereal units while channeling the crest witch's ultimate, the spell is canceled and she walks up to that unit instead of changing the spell's direction; an error message stating something like "Unable to attack ethereal units." is displayed
  • mystic swashbuckler's flurry doesn't seem to trigger on standard attacks, even if I don't have the flurry talent or any items with a skill proc effect
Questionable skill behaviour:
  • divine wizard's empower: the shorter aoe buff is activated first when casting the skill, the longer self-buff to attack damage is applied after a short delay; is it intentional that it's easy to accidentally cancel the cast in between the two and lose the attack damage buff that way?
  • elder treant's forest lord - ghoul root aspect: the overall healing amount increases with skill level, but the healing rate decreases, which makes the skill become weaker in my opinion because it is usually not limited by lack of corpses but by the fact that healing from several corpses can't be stacked; is this skill behaviour intentional?
Tooltip stuff:
  • elder treant's forest lord - highwood aspect: according to the skill tooltip, the skill gains one more pixie for every 20 strength, but it's actually every 25 (it was probably nerfed at some point and the tooltip wasn't updated)
  • -s for crimson squall doesn't show values for and crash (strength version) and overpower, others might be missing as well
As far as I remember, you wrote at some point that the special i mode AI will be made available via chat command. Is this still on your agenda?

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#5 Post by watermelon »

Possible ideas for a team comp:
Survivability
  • Eido - shield, aoe
  • Tyrant - shield
  • RK - shield
  • Rue - auras, anti-hero
  • AA - heal, aoe
  • TC - heal
  • Dwarf - anti-hero
Ethereal
  • FM - pk
  • AM - caster
  • AA - heal, aoe
  • Oracle - heal, aoe
  • Scarab - heal, smite
  • IS - caster, siege
Take Down
  • Murloc - spammer
  • Tact - building sniper
  • BP - siege, unit support
  • Bane - bane
  • Tree - tree, debuff
  • Rue - auras
Girl Power
  • Should have Tact
  • AA
  • Am
  • Oracle
  • Tact
  • Aero - caster
  • AC - caster
  • Murloc
  • TC
Other Stuff

Requests
  • Replace/Improve Brainlust, Nemesis, Rue's ult, Maelstrom
  • Neph: Close Wounds in the early levels is ridiculously weak because of the short duration.
  • See above posts. =P
AI Stuff
  • Inconsistencies
  • Oracle - innate, ult
  • Defiler - ult
  • Reek - Maw, Anchor
  • Murloc - Fountain

    Misc
  • Tact shouldn't cast Blast Arrow after casting Flank. You could try to make her use it offensively too.
  • Tone down AI Forks in some way since they're pretty much broken at the moment.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#6 Post by DarnYak »

So here's an actual example of how teams are put together just to give anyone that cares an idea:

Code: Select all

//Basic roles
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Siege","BP,Tyrant,RK,Tree,Garg,Inf,Tact,Ember,Tony")    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("AoE","AA,IS,DW,SB,Aero,Eido,Tony,Bane,AM,Garg,Ember,Tyrant,Tact,Grav,Murloc,Dwarf")    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Heal","TC,AA,AC,Defiler,Eido,Tony,RK,BP,Oracle,Tyrant")    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("PK","Inf,Harpy,Swashy,FM,Bane,CS,Rue,Defiler,AM,IS,Dwarf")    

//Themed roles
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Blade","Swashy,CS,FirePanda,RK,Rue,FM,Inf,TC")    
    
//Teams
    call DraftAI_Setup_Team("Balanced","AoE,Siege,Heal,PK,AoE")    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Team("Blades","Blade,Blade,Blade,Blade,Blade")    
Heroes are listed in rough order of priority (I spent about 2m on these just for example/testing purposes so if you find my priority laughable w/e I can change it). Current plan is to pick randomly from the top 3 available heroes (ie picking siege and bp/rk were banned, it'll pick from tyrant, tree and garg. If AP is off, undead team and nothing's banned it'll pick from garg, ember and tony).

Team role order matters to the extent that not full teams will pick only the first x roles (ie 3v3 balanced teams will never pick a pk or a second aoe).

This is only planned to be used for AI drafting, otherwise its pure random. AI with random draft might be doable but probably not worth the effort (which reminds me, that should probably be tested that it works at all).

Suggestions are welcome.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#7 Post by DarnYak »

•requiem's self heal talent doesn't work reliably: sometimes the healing amount is only what the skill tooltip says, without the increase from the talent; this occurs roughly (I'm not sure if it's exactly) on every 2nd cast of the healing skill
Doesn't look like this is possible, are you sure this wasn't a mana shortage issue?
•when clicking on ethereal units while channeling the crest witch's ultimate, the spell is canceled and she walks up to that unit instead of changing the spell's direction; an error message stating something like "Unable to attack ethereal units." is displayed
The caster dummy unit doesn't have an attack so it should be trying to move not attack...blizzard bug.
•elder treant's forest lord - ghoul root aspect: the overall healing amount increases with skill level, but the healing rate decreases, which makes the skill become weaker in my opinion because it is usually not limited by lack of corpses but by the fact that healing from several corpses can't be stacked; is this skill behaviour intentional
Tooltip's wrong, it's always over 10 seconds.
As far as I remember, you wrote at some point that the special i mode AI will be made available via chat command. Is this still on your agenda?
Yea, but somewhat low priority. Feel free to remind me every new version till its added.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#8 Post by watermelon »

CS's Agi Surge feels week in comparison to the other stats. I feel that the AoE could be increased.
Gravel's innate just feels broken early game where he can easily scare away enemy heroes with the high armor reduction.
Miasma Nerf.

Comments on the current role setup
Siege:
Tyrant and RK definitely shouldn't be so close to the top; I actually think Inf should be before them mainly because of Sabotage.
Tact should be closer to the top.
Ember > Garg.
Bane and IS should be in the list mostly because of their strong ults. Arguably Gravel could also be here due to Heart of the Mountain, Rockslide, and ult (though he's not smart with using it).

AoE:
Tony should probably be later. Bane before Aero since she casts Tempest weirdly at times.
AI SB doesn't use him that well to take good advantage of incinerate.
Tact doesn't really do that well against large masses of units.
Dwarf doesn't belong there at all since he doesn't even use Shadowclap; I would argue the same with Tyrant.

Healer:
I guess by heal, you also include shields?
Until you change the base ability for AC's heal, she should be below Eido. I do think Defiler's heal is better than AC's though.
Oracle's heal seems better than Tony's and BP's. Tyrant > RK.
No Scarab?

PK:
Don't make Swash so high until you fix his stupid Blizzard AI using Dash.
I kind of find it funny seeing Defiler there when all he really has is Plague and Pestilence.
AM seems pretty ineffective at PKing, at least by herself.

Blade:
Add Tyrant?

EDIT

AI: Oracle, Ember, and Tyrant have spell casting stuttering problems when trying to escape.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#9 Post by DarnYak »

Updated the team lists and added some more, further ideas/refinement welcome (note this doesn't include themed teams):

Code: Select all

    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Siege","BP,Inf,Grav,Bane,IS,Tact,Ember,Garg,Tyrant,RK,Tree,Tony")    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("AoE","AA,IS,DW,Bane,Aero,Eido,AM,Garg,Ember,Tony,SB,Grav,Murloc,Tact")    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Heal","TC,AA,Defiler,Eido,AC,Scarab,Oracle,Tony,Tyrant,RK,BP")    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("PK","Inf,Harpy,FM,Bane,Fenris,Reek,CS,Rue,Swashy,Lich,AM,IS,Dwarf,FirePanda")    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Banish","AM,FM,Oracle")    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Nuke","Lich,Scarab,Defiler,Aero,AM,AA,IS,Bane,AC,Tyrant,FirePanda,SB")    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Buff","Murloc,Tact,BP,Grav,AA,TC,Tony,Rue,Lich")    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("SpawnHeal","BP,Oracle,Tony,Scarab")    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Tough","Grav,Tony,Tyrant,Reek,RK,Bane,Ember,Scarab,FirePanda,Rue,Tree")    
        
    call DraftAI_Setup_Team("Balanced","AoE,Siege,Heal,PK,AoE",20)    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Team("Balanced2","Tough,AoE,Heal,Tough,AoE",20)    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Team("Pushers","Siege,Siege,Siege,AoE,AoE",20)    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Team("Nukers","Banish,Nuke,Nuke,AoE,Heal",10)    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Team("SuperSpawn","SpawnHeal,Buff,Buff,Buff,Buff",5)    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Team("DieHard","Tough,Tough,Heal,Tough,Tough",10)    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Team("NeverDie","Heal,Heal,Heal,Heal,Heal",5)    
    call DraftAI_Setup_Team("Reapers","PK,PK,PK,PK,PK",5)    
Edit: Finally found the bug with them trying to kill a non-existent hero. Would also cause all sorts of weird behavior when trying to gank, so hopefully tomorrow will show some real improvements there.
Edit: Also figured out what was causing the horrid targeting of all line spells in the game. Looks like I was trying to do something clever with trig but ended up making it #1 no faster and #2 broken.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#10 Post by watermelon »

Code: Select all

    
    // swapped Tact and Grav, Inf before Ember, moved RK to last, Tree before Garg because of his debuff
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Siege","BP,Tact,Bane,IS,Grav,Inf,Ember,Tree,Garg,Tyrant,Tony,RK") 
    // added AC, moved SB
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("AoE","AA,IS,DW,Bane,Aero,Eido,AM,Garg,Ember,Tony,AC,Grav,Murloc,SB,Tact")   
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Heal","TC,AA,Defiler,Eido,AC,Scarab,Oracle,Tony,Tyrant,RK,BP")   
    // removed FirePanda (AI sucks at PKing and he generally doesn't have the tools to PK well), Dwarf before Lich just because tougher, added Garg, moved Rue
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("PK","Inf,Harpy,FM,Bane,Fenris,Reek,CS,Swashy,Dwarf,Garg,Rue,Lich,AM,IS")   
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Banish","AM,FM,Oracle")   
    // added DW, removed Tyrant since he doesn't use line nuke, moved Aero, moved AC
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Nuke","Scarab,DW,Lich,Defiler,AM,IS,Aero,Bane,AC,AA,FirePanda,SB")   
    // moved Lich before Rue (crit buff is pretty nice), Tony before TC
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Buff","Murloc,Tact,BP,Grav,AA,Tony,TC,Lich,Rue")   
    // if you fixed Murloc to cast fountain properly, I would add her after Scarab
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("SpawnHeal","BP,Oracle,Tony,Scarab")   
    // Tree at top because he's so much of a tree, Garg because flying fatass, Rue because land fatass, Ember after FirePanda since he only Erupts
    // bleah too many changes
    call DraftAI_Setup_Role("Tough","Tree,Garg,Rue,Tyrant,Bane,RK,Grav,Tony,Scarab,FirePanda,Ember,Reek") 
Team comps seem okay and hilarious.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#11 Post by Scheba »

DarnYak wrote:
•requiem's self heal talent doesn't work reliably: sometimes the healing amount is only what the skill tooltip says, without the increase from the talent; this occurs roughly (I'm not sure if it's exactly) on every 2nd cast of the healing skill
Doesn't look like this is possible, are you sure this wasn't a mana shortage issue?
I repeated the test and couldn't reproduce the result. After a while I figured out it might have something to do with Rue being in the previous test game :oops:. My mistake.

I also tested Maw and wasn't able to reproduce its strange behaviour either, so it was probably just me being unable to tell exactly how many units I hit with Maw due to lag. That, or another case of Mortal Strike...

Other things I noticed:
  • Requiem's Entrap Souls gives 0.6*Int mana per soul, not 0.5*Int as the tooltip states (-s gives the correct value)
  • Requiems's Incinerate tooltip and -s don't match, -s gives a higher value than expected, possibly the 15% bonus from the target being on fire is included here?
  • Requiems's Carnage tooltip and -s don't match, -s gives a lower value than expected, no idea why
  • Reek's Anchor skill is disabled while he is ethereal although it is a conjuration (conjurations should be magical skills right?)
  • Blackguard's Doom Hammer deals damage the instant it is cast, but stuns when the thrown hammer actually reaches the target; that way it can stun a target that turns ethereal while the hammer is in flight
  • Dread Shaman's Ancestral Fury gives bonuses to all his other skills except his ultimate, which may or may not be intentional
I'm looking forward to bots not standing in a corner trying to get off the map :)

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#12 Post by DarnYak »

AI: Oracle, Ember, and Tyrant have spell casting stuttering problems when trying to escape.
If anyone finds more of these I have a simple fix in place (but its per hero) now just let me know.
// removed FirePanda (AI sucks at PKing and he generally doesn't have the tools to PK well), Dwarf before Lich just because tougher, added Garg, moved Rue
call DraftAI_Setup_Role("PK","Inf,Harpy,FM,Bane,Fenris,Reek,CS,Swashy,Dwarf,Garg,Rue,Lich,AM,IS")
I added fire panda just cause he wasn't on any of the lists at the time, as it is now we should probably never expect him in a draft team. I didn't think the AI is so bad with him it warrants a near ban.

Reek has a similar issue. Middle of PK and bottom of tough. AI seems good with him, but I'm not sure doing what exactly.
•Requiems's Incinerate tooltip and -s don't match, -s gives a higher value than expected, possibly the 15% bonus from the target being on fire is included here?
Shouldn't be. Evoc bonus? Or if using numbers that appear, hero default magic reduction?
•Blackguard's Doom Hammer deals damage the instant it is cast, but stuns when the thrown hammer actually reaches the target; that way it can stun a target that turns ethereal while the hammer is in flight
Blizz's fault, too much of a hassle and minor effect to fix.
•Dread Shaman's Ancestral Fury gives bonuses to all his other skills except his ultimate, which may or may not be intentional
Oversight (it used to be the ult), but I'm going to say intended for now.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#13 Post by watermelon »

I wasn't intentionally trying to ban Fire Panda. =P
I just don't agree with him in PK since it's easy to avoid his nuke and his ult to some extent. He also lacks holds.
If you made Fire Panda nuke buildings, you could put him in Siege (before Tyrant).

You could add Reek to AoE because of Maw, Miasma, and ult. I would put him before Ember. A good Brainlust replacement could put him in Buff. =P

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#14 Post by Scheba »

DarnYak wrote:
•Requiems's Incinerate tooltip and -s don't match, -s gives a higher value than expected, possibly the 15% bonus from the target being on fire is included here?
Shouldn't be. Evoc bonus? Or if using numbers that appear, hero default magic reduction?
I'm not talking about the numbers that appear above heroes when they are hit, I just calculated the damage according to the skill tooltip and got a different result than what -s states. Same with Carnage, -s just didn't match the skill tooltip.

I did another test (see the replay below):
  • At level 31, my hero has 99 Int.
    Skill level 1 Carnage does 137 damage according to -s, but 120 + 0.6*Int with a 6% evocation damage bonus should be 190.
    Skill level 2 Carnage does 189 damage according to -s, but 180 + 0.8*Int with a 6% evocation damage bonus should be 274.
  • At level 36, my hero has 131 Int.
    Skill level 3 Carnage does 276 damage according to -s, but 240 + Int with a 6% evocation damage bonus should be 393.
  • At level 45, my hero has 180 Int.
    Skill level 4 Carnage does 436 damage according to -s, but 300 + 1.2*Int with a 16% evocation damage bonus should be 570.
If different sources of evocation damage bonus stack multiplicatively, there's nothing wrong with Incinerate . I always assumed additive stacking... :oops: I wonder why I never noticed this before.

This does not explain the damage values for Carnage, though.
watermelon wrote:A good Brainlust replacement could put him in Buff. =P
As Yak asked for suggestions I tried to come up with something, but I haven't had any good ideas yet. Maybe my brother has an idea, he's usually more creative than me.
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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f14D Download

#15 Post by DarnYak »

Yea carnage's tooltip was wrong, that's why I was asking about incinerate only. And yea evoc is multiplicative.

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