EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

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EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#1 Post by DarnYak »

Blahblahblah

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#2 Post by watermelon »

Tact is so strong she gets deleted. Not like it matters as the team manages fine 3v5.
Seems to have happened when Stun rune triggered.

EDIT:
Other things I've broken today:
Murloc Rampage converts neutral passive units.
Couldn't properly rebuild a base at Blue's reinforcement.

EDIT 2:
Tact comments:
Reminder for -s and fixing hero tooltip
First cast of neutralize doesn't seem to deal any damage, otherwise it seems to work.
Neutralize is called Ensnare in the spell tooltip.
Is Blast Arrow affecting allies intentional?
Blast Arrow explodes before the arrow actually reaches the location.
Definitely less passive. Still sad that Promote isn't good outside of human races. Innate seems useful on Storm for taking down Ob towers otherwise it''s mostly interesting to just see creeps play Follow the Leader.
Not sure if she's actually OP since the AI I played against might have just sucked (they were squishies).
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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#3 Post by DarnYak »

Yea, it looks like you swapped places with the glyph somehow, considering it never goes away at the time it should have been deleted.

Neutralize's damage is actually using Blast Arrow's damage atm, so no level of arrow = 0 damage. Blast arrow isn't suppose to hit allies.

Edit: Displacement doesn't remove the rune, only kills it. I have no doubt it's somehow related, but the relation is probably more indirect and possibly impossible to reproduce. Also, Blast Arrow already has a check to not hit allies, there might actually be some weird connection here...

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#4 Post by watermelon »

Harpy still seems pretty strong. By endgame, I managed to keep an AI hero at Level 13 while my team was in their 40's. It might mostly be due to Blade Rain abuse.
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How does Anchor work? Is it supposed to feel like the slow is best when the hero is close to the burden and weaker as the hero manages to escape?
I think Maw of Death's spit can deal too much damage to buildings.
In the replay, I managed to take down a tower quickly just by spitting out the gold mine workers. It also felt like -s was displaying lower damage for eating units as I was able to eat Furbolgs despite damage saying otherwise.
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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#5 Post by watermelon »

Gluttony Balancing:
Feast is more reasonable.
Talented Slice's slow seems too strong. I feel that the duration should be shortened.
Potluck doesn't seem to create a spawn for 1500 health after the first sludge is created. Spell tooltip says 300 health. Sludges can still easily overwhelm towers and make opposing merc waves look dumb.

Some bugs in attached replay:
AI Garg drops two rings for some reason.
A spell immune unit kept jumping above the Potluck like it was going to go in but it couldn't.
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Murloc Balancing:
Coracles have a very strong magic attack.
The spawns still seem to be too strong since she can summon a lot of them easily and without much effort. You might want to limit the number of murlocs that can be spawned from Rogue Wave or something else so that she can't summon so many units quickly.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#6 Post by watermelon »

Garg:
Terra Smash's nerf seems reasonable. It's still a strong skill in its own right due to scaled AoE.
Stonegaze's nerf is rather hilarious as I couldn't even tell that it actually did something at Level 1. The slow moving gaze should allow heroes a better chance to escape but Garg still has enough crowd control that it's just really a matter of chaining disables on a hero. It might actually even be more helpful against spawns since Garg would have a longer time frame to autoattack them to death as each unit gets gazed slowly.
For the innate, could you make the small gargoyle move faster in picking up and dropping targets? The long disable is what irks me most about it.

Neph:
Is it intentional that Close Wounds dispels wounds throughout the entire duration?
I'm still unsure if he's OP. He does feel strong and I can still manage kills without too much reliance on stunlocks, which should allow human players more chances to escape. The true broken things about him are cooldown mess ups and Close Wounds overwriting Scintillate which quasi translates into having Close Wounds for ~25 seconds. He's a beast in fullskills mode but most heroes generally have more options to fight back or escape due to the extra skill points.
Reminder if you want to do anything to Vampiric Bite so that it can be a viable alternative to Shred.
Nitpicky - make Plunder do something against normal units, make Shred and Swipe properly target magic immune units

FM/Harpy Thoughts:
The reason they may be more broken than other PKers is that they have at least another option in damaging heroes in addition to their devoted hero nuke, Harpy - Blade Rain; FM - Whirl, Polarize, and to some extent his innate. (The same might be said for Neph who relies on casting multiple skills to deal damage but he's restrained more by skill point investment.) In particular, Blade Rain rapes enemy spawns at the same time as heroes while late-game Whirl rapes everything. For Whirl, you might want to scale the damage back at higher levels, considering that it's more spammable than other AoE spells.

Other Suspects for Balance/Testing:
Defiler's cloud seems too effective in completely wiping out an enemy push.
Tree's fairies increasing Tree's damage output against isolated units.
DS/Gravel/IS as I've barely seen people use him.

AI:
Please make Panda not try PKing since he doesn't have a reliable option in killing off heroes. For the squishies that PK, they should chase less aggressively, though once in a while they manage to surprise me (most often, they manage to disappoint).
Inf seems to like setting down mines too much when she should be escaping.
Bane seems to be suffering Reek syndrome for some reason by refusing to run away smartly when low on health and just glaring at enemy lines.
RK sadly still won't complete his ult.
Change AC's heal base ability so that she can actually be useful like AA and cast her heal at the right time.
The insanes might actually feel easier due to buying ports and losing that one item slot to beef up their heroes. You might want to make them stop buying those once they're rich enough on gold that they rarely need to retreat.
Additional item options could be Potions and Clarity. For SB, make him focus more on getting Int items rather than Str. For fun, have Inf buy nets.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#7 Post by Executor »

I'd like to add that it is very easy to defeat a team of insane ai with harpy using swoop and blade rain. Swoop can be almost impossible to dodge once it is at level 6. The talented knockback is hilarious. Behemoth (Reek) also seems overpowered, mostly due to miasma...unless it can be dispelled? I'm not a fan of relying on dispells, especially if I'm not sure if they will work. Reek's maw of death feels very strong, and his anchor can be used to automatically stun heroes when placed far enough but still connecting. When the anchor is placed directly on the hero, it can sometimes be impossible to attack it without moving a bit outward, and the anchor has a high amount of health to force a single hero to spend a considerable amount of time attacking it. This is very dangerous when outnumbered or ambushed.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#8 Post by DarnYak »

Watermelon/anyone else: I'm scrapping the whole support AI since it seems completely ineffective. Am I wrong?

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#9 Post by watermelon »

By support AI, do you mean the heroes that stalk you? Seems fine since a lot of times, I would be trying to PK or backdoor while they would charge recklessly in and get killed because they decided to stalk me. Or stalk me back to my base when I need healing and they don't.
There are some times though when they are helpful like AA coming out of nowhere to Ethereal Heal or focus on helping you take down a base wheras most AI start sieging and then end halfway through.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#10 Post by DarnYak »

Yea, those. They just seem to either get themselves killed trying to track you down or just fall behind and its generally not worth it. They'll obviously still prioritize healing spells and whatnot they just won't cross the map to always be around you.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#11 Post by Executor »

An excellent way to compromise would be to use a command menu or command through chat that enables/disables any AI following you. I'm not sure how hard this would be to do or if it is possible. Taking it a step further, you could control what lanes the AI are on, which would need to depend on the map selected. Enable/disable for the AI giving you their gold would be nice to have as well since the AI on my team fall behind on equipment.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#12 Post by DarnYak »

A lot of the issue is just there's no good possible interface for it in WC3, or else a lot of those options would be more viable. A secondary issue (although arguably moot considering how little team play this gets anymore) is that when there's multiple players, having one person give bad AI commands could really screw a team over.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#13 Post by watermelon »

Any hope for being able to force your AI to be certain heroes though? =P

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#14 Post by DarnYak »

Nope!

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#15 Post by watermelon »

Scarab's smite -s doesn't account for evocation bonus.

EDIT:
Finally got around to playing with Dwarf's new talent.
It definitely makes it more powerful though it makes it up for not being easy to land. Wouldn't the talent that reduces delay reduce the talent's effect though?
Still don't like playing with him that much as I'm mostly just taking advantage of the AI's stupidity to get kills. (A mix of abusing invisibility and the fact that they run away from the timed slam) =P

I'm not really sure if AI building towers really helps them as opposed to investing the gold and crystal elsewhere. It just seems to delay the inevitable a bit as near end-game, heroes are much stronger than towers which don't scale at all.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#16 Post by DarnYak »

I'm not really sure if AI building towers really helps them as opposed to investing the gold and crystal elsewhere. It just seems to delay the inevitable a bit as near end-game, heroes are much stronger than towers which don't scale at all.
Command towers or normal defense ones? The former is a somewhat minor investment, the later should generally only kick in when they're maxed/near maxed on items, and if that's the case I'm not sure where else they'd be spending it.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#17 Post by watermelon »

Defense towers. They built them rather early in a Candle game.

It's pretty easy to bait the AI heroes into putting themselves in a bad situation, especially when you have human allies. It's not really easy to solve this, but you might want to do something about the AI leaping themselves into a huge creep wave when they're trying to take down a low life hero. The weird stalking they do isn't that helpful when they can also auto attack a hero to death; perhaps only ranged heroes should have this behavior while melee heroes attempt more of attacking?

AA probably shouldn't be that aggressive when chasing heroes since she's squishy and can only meteor reliably with a hold.
CS is still inconsistent with usage of Crash.
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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#18 Post by DarnYak »

Just fyi, I found some pretty clear bugs with the retreat code (I kinda suspected this before, but the AI changes made it simple enough to test and prove), so fixing that should be a significant improvement to the AI. In short, there were a few spots where the AI would always get itself confused and caught in a loop of death trying to run away. Most notably on mid, it's almost impossible for a blue AI sieging red's base to ever make it out alive.

Edit: Actually, now that I got around to fixing the bug I found out the main fix was already implemented when I wrote it in the first place. Had to go with just tweaking the lane pathing in the problematic spots - so if there's any places the AI always commits suicide trying to run away besides main, let me know.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#19 Post by watermelon »

Rather belated thoughts on Lich:
[Note - I'm more biased for writing this than other hero write-ups since Lich used to be one of my favorite heroes before the revamps when other heroes became more broken/stronger.]
  • Bonestorm - The most annoying thing is that it generates a lot of creeps that creepblock Lich and make order targeting laggier since they stalk Lich. Collision decrease/removal or flying movement would be nice though it would look weird.
    Personally, I would rather have the skeletons be owned by the computer spawn player and be independent in pushing or push the lane that Lich was in while channeling the spell.
  • Rend Soul - Main skill that made Lich very threatening before UD revamp since it dealt a lot of damage around lower levels (most infamously 180 damage around level 1). Early-game Rend Soul is generally more useful in scaring away heroes than being used to kill one enemy spawn due to cooldown.
    I feel that the damage nerf should have came with slightly lowered cooldown for the initial levels. At lower levels, the skill doesn't damage heroes that much (at level 1, the area damage deals more) while having long cooldowns. Damage and cooldown are both reasonable by level 6.
  • Innate - Nothing's really wrong with it though I wish it could be spammier (lower cooldown) to take advantage of AoE Rend Soul more often (which is already a pain to use since it's target unit AoE).
    If you did do this, you would definitely need to tweak percent restoration (including the talent) and perhaps the duration and mana cost.
  • Dark Altar - I wished that the souls moved slightly faster into the altar. I feel somewhat sad that Murloc's fountain health scaling is much better than this (even having Hero armor).
    It would also be nice if Lich could fly to make more use of this skill since pathing is so annoying. =P
  • Remorseless - Has a lot of utility for denying creeps early-game and countering debuffs thanks to WC3's horrible buff overwriting system. I often use the innate combo with this until late-game.
  • Gravebind - One point really only needs to be invested in this for hero killing and an interrupt though Lich can still perform well without bothering with it.

    In general, it feels like Lich became more of a support/pusher hero.
Oracle:
Reminder for summons not dispelling invulnerables.
Mindstab - Evocation decrease seems pretty negligible; I feel that this could be boosted a bit more since the debuff now lasts a shorter amount of time.


AI:
At Candle, make them hire the better spawns when pushing or defending.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#20 Post by watermelon »

Finally got around to playing with SB's longer Soul Strike. Definitely more useful and I can see SB become more offensive rather than just being a troll with Decoy. Soul Strike still pretty much requires some support or the talent investment to get the full benefits though it's much easier now.
In general, SB still seems broken late-game where buildings crumble easily due to Incinerate combined with Evoc perk. Incinerate's knockback can also be very helpful in preventing enemy heroes from escaping.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f12 Download

#21 Post by Scheba »

I finally got around to testing the experience bonus for insane AI bots. It isn't bugged, it's still a 50% bonus.

Other tings I noticed:
  • insane AI in a team with humans can build defensive towers
  • murloc can't attack ethereal units although she seems like a caster hero to me; is this intentional?
  • Tactician's banner displays that its hotkey is "e", but it's actually "c"

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