EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

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EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#1 Post by DarnYak »

Hopefully the last batch of significant changes/additions. I'm pretty sure some of the AI problems is due to them being willing to walk across the map even though it would take too much time, instead of to keep doing whatever they're doing until a port is ready - but fixing that would probably be a huge undertaking and I don't think i'm willing to do it.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#2 Post by DarnYak »

Here's a replay of an epic Kedge game from today.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#3 Post by watermelon »

Initial Thoughts on Neph:
Fixed Retaliate makes me sad when fighting against DPS heroes though at least it still works on towers (you may want to make it only deal half damage though)
Would be nice if Scintillate didn't cancel out Cure Wounds, but it can be abused to make Cure Wounds last longer (since buff overwriting keeps the longer buff duration).
War/melee is actually useful now thanks to the smaller mana costs and the fact that Swipe can actually do something. A bit sad that Shred and Swipe can't target magic-immune units though Swipe still hits them.
Thought it was weird that Plunder costs more mana than Shred when it's less useful.
About the new skill cycles:
Vampiric Bite being in the same skill cycle as Shred makes it sad as it really can't compare at all.
Very easy to chain buffs now, which is nice but does seem to make him ridiculous when sieging.
In general, switching around the skill sets was mostly helpful (like actually having Evasion be useful for skill cycling). His killing potential was reduced though due to the increased cooldowns since he can't do a perma stunlock now, but that's probably for the better.

Thoughts on AI:
Much more suicidal, especially in the beginning when they don't decide to run away that much.
My AI allies bought a destroyed outpost which was pretty useful but didn't compensate how often they did suicidal charges. (In particular, BP is the spitting image of a sieging martyr.)
I don't think insane comp AI allies should do stuff with command towers because they shouldn't be more of a burden than they already are.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#4 Post by DarnYak »

I don't think insane comp AI allies should do stuff with command towers because they shouldn't be more of a burden than they already are.
I assume you mean allies of humans. This is a bug.

One other note: I added code for them to take down top/bottom enemy obs (among other things), but in my own testing they would random get stuck in odd places. I THINK it's fixed, but keep an eye out for it.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#5 Post by watermelon »

More Stuff on AI:
I've noticed that some AI buy 6 items at the start of a game while some barely get any.
AI IS was pretty much spamming the map with webs when his inventory was full, not the brightest idea if it was against human players.
Should the AI build more than one command tower per base?
The AI seemed less motivated to buy digmasters than they used to.
AI support heroes tend to linger around digmasters.
Using False Alliance on AI in Kedge is hilarious as they will hand over the moontear.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#6 Post by watermelon »

I saw the Blue AI take down the top Ob tower that should have belonged to them (no, I didn't cheese them this time; it was my silly AI ally), though they were rather slow in rebuilding it. I feel that it can mess up their decisions since I was sieging their base while they were taking it down.
Decisions to place mini Obs are still awful; ex: my AI ally on Inn decided to plop it on Blue's side which promptly got destroyed rather than placing it on the free spot in the base.
Blue AI always seems to enjoy having an AI party on Rock in the beginning of the game, which doesn't really help them in terms of experience.
Acid Rain's armor reduction doesn't always go away (might be due to me stopping prematurely but it did clean up correctly for others).
The AI heroes can get trapped in the paths leading to middle which makes them look silly.
For some reason, my AI ally Reek's zombies appeared in a completely different position than where he was. They appeared in blue's reinforcement base, where I was, while he was actually on the middle front doors of Blue's main base. I think I just finished casting Acid Rain when that happened.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#7 Post by DarnYak »

Vampiric Bite being in the same skill cycle as Shred makes it sad as it really can't compare at all.
Quick stats @6:
Vamp bite - 105 + 0.95 x Str
Shred - 270 + 1.45 x Str

Shred's base damage is a bit high probably, but I'm not quite sure how much I want to buff Vamp bite due to the combined heal resulting in a 205 + 1.9 x Str health offset. Granted, its also on a different skill and is meant for endurance not a quick kill. I think I'll change it to do double to spawns, or possibly another effect (weakens the target comes to mind).
Much more suicidal, especially in the beginning when they don't decide to run away that much.
There's really no reason they should be more suicidal right now compared to the previous version. If anything I've improved their response to defending obs (they shouldn't port straigh tinto a overwhelming force, nor should they just try running through an enemy army to get to the ob). I am currious to what extent this is occuring entirely in Storm's mid lane, I've definitely noticed the pathing there ends up with all sorts of weird problems with trying to walk to another lane, which generaly happens to be fastest by walking through enemy forces in mid.
I've noticed that some AI buy 6 items at the start of a game while some barely get any.
That's the new gold pooling going on. Heroes will tend to deplete the entire gold pool everytime they go shopping, till they max out. The plus side is the gold's getting used this way. Down side is it's not spread evenly across heroes, but it SHOULD even out fairly fast.
Should the AI build more than one command tower per base?
If different AI's are buildng towers - yes. It's not efficient, but all but the first will get demolished for a full refund. It's me being lazy and it does no real harm. However some of the weirdness seems to be wc3's built in AI building stuff on its own.
Blue AI always seems to enjoy having an AI party on Rock in the beginning of the game, which doesn't really help them in terms of experience.
Wondering if this might be the first mid lane obelisk that's getting built, and they all target it if they're behind on obs. Could hold off placing you're ob and see if this stil happens.
The AI heroes can get trapped in the paths leading to middle which makes them look silly.
Trapped by spawns you mean? Sadly I can't think of any easy fix.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#8 Post by watermelon »

I probably keep complaining about Vamp Bite since it doesn't live up to its cooler sounding name than Shred. Negating the heal, the stat comparison shows that it's basically dealing the damage of a level 1 shred at level 6. It's not that helpful in terms of survivability; ~200 health healed isn't much at that late in the game when auto attacking can quickly nullify that and the fact that Neph needs to get up close and personal. Better staying power would be granted by Close Wounds.
Trapped by spawns you mean? Sadly I can't think of any easy fix.
Yes. Maybe if they decided to attack them if they figure that they've been stuck in the same place for more than 10 seconds? It can be game breaking for them when two heroes are stuck amidst trees and creeps.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#9 Post by DarnYak »

Maybe if they decided to attack them if they figure that they've been stuck in the same place for more than 10 seconds? It can be game breaking for them when two heroes are stuck amidst trees and creeps.
That actually should be how it works currently, unless I broke it...

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#10 Post by watermelon »

Fullskills no longer works.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#11 Post by watermelon »

Bump for Oracle's nemesis not doing damage to invulnerable summoned units (tried on AA's owls).

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#12 Post by watermelon »

Gravel's Smash -s doesn't display damage. He also feels like an absurd damage dealer against heroes with innate, Smash, and Rockslide.

The wiki is also under attack by bots.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#13 Post by watermelon »

This is what real AI slaughtering is.
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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#14 Post by watermelon »

Hero Balancing comments:
  • FM - Nerf higher level (2+) Streak. PKers thrive a lot on mobility and higher leveled Streak (with shorter cooldown and longer range) gives much more to FM to the extent that he becomes broken. I would say that Polarize should be changed in some way too thanks to how annoying Scheba has been with it (=P), but it can become useless if people ever buy dispels.
  • Harpy - Swoop's knockback is ridiculous and generally sets up the target for a Blade Rain shower while they jtiter in the same place. I don't really like the idea that mapwide swoops can instant kill her targets but she sort of shares that trait with Inf, though at least Inf can be countered somewhat by invis detection whereas it's hard to counter Swoop without having map hack or playing on a smaller map.
  • CS - I like the idea of his innate encouraging different stats by giving back mana if his "main attribute" changes but I think that it gives too much that he basically never needs to worry about mana.
  • Murloc - She influences early game way too much with her nuke that it forces the other team to always be on the defensive until the other team gets better AoE late-game, if late-game ever happens. In exchange for lessening her impact early-game, she should scale better so that she won't be that useless. Rogue Wave spawns a lot of murlocs that are strong for Level 1 and then have mediocre stats by Level 6; reduce the number of water elementals she flings and make the murlocs weaker initially but scale somewhat better (compare to other units that can be summoned by heroes like skeletons and note that she will generally spawn more than three of them).
  • Garg - It's probably the most broken hero in EotA (Murloc is second) and should be proof of why heroes shouldn't have more than one crowd control ability. I don't have a good idea what you can do without nerfing the hell out of it or changing the mechanics of its spells.
  • Bane - Has similar problems to Garg with crowd control though at least he can't fly. Again, I can't really suggest a good idea because his crowd control comes from his skills. Heroes that have crowd control skills with some harder to use are problematic because they can simply use one of the easier skills to stun the target then use the other skills to stunlock the enemy. (In Bane's case, innate or Charge takes place of the easy stun while Impale is the harder one.)
  • Tree - I still feel that Timbercurse is too strong against normal units with a long duration of 30 seconds, a short cooldown and small mana cost; that basically means he can always put it on enemy units. It's pretty much a waste to dispel it because ~4 seconds later, he can just cast it again.
  • Gluttony - Everything he summons is infuriating because it basically comes out of nowhere and is hard to react to. He dominates his lane completely if no hero is against him.
    Innate can be very broken since creeps can't even attack it, which can lead to a 20 second disabling of creeps if no hero is in his lane. It's particularly annoying if you're playing as a melee hero since you have to be feared in order to remove it. At the very least, I think the innate should only be placed where he is like most of DS's totems.
    Having Feast last indefinitely until it runs out of charges, which is like never, is one of the reason it can get annoying quickly. It's basically the easiest summon that can heal units, yet it's also the strongest. In comparison, Ankh is limited by number of units and benefits heroes the most; Lich's fountain relies on units being killed; Murloc's fountain is hard to take advantage of by creeps.
    Chili Breath can easily get out of hand if he's pushing and he generally will be. The overall damage output seems high due to the chance for units to spew fire and the affected units. Perhaps limit the number of units that can breathe fire or reduce the damage. Cooldown seems pretty low.
    His ult should be damaged by spells (at least those that can hit buildings). It's already hard to take down with its high health, not aggroing towers, and basically reversing the enemy's push. Creating spawns just from 300 health seems rather low, especially when they are rather strong and quickly take down towers. (I feel that the released Potluck was more balanced than it is now) It has a rather low cooldown. I would suggest making it have some kind of activation time before it does stuff like Eido's Tree but it's not as necessary as tweaking how quickly it eats units and producing sludges.
    Although I ranted a lot about Gluttony, it's mostly that he needs more tweaking like Murloc; he's not broken like Garg.
  • Reek - Miasma is just annoying because it's easy to throw out, lasts for a very long time, and can't be countered. Although the flies don't deal as much as they used to, they can still stack up quickly and can throw a large wrench in the opposing push. I still wish that this could be dispelled like clouds.
TLDR; basically I'm bitching about stuff that are strong and hard to counter, and I'm saying that they should be changed to be either weaker or more susceptible to being countered.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#15 Post by Scheba »

watermelon wrote:FM - Nerf higher level (2+) Streak. PKers thrive a lot on mobility and higher leveled Streak (with shorter cooldown and longer range) gives much more to FM to the extent that he becomes broken. I would say that Polarize should be changed in some way too thanks to how annoying Scheba has been with it (=P), but it can become useless if people ever buy dispels.
Don't take away my FM :( He's one of the few heroes I'm halfway decent at playing. Furthermore, dispel items really make him useless.

Now, what did I come here for...right,things I noticed in EotA:

Bugs:
  • Gargoyle's terra smash doesn't slow golems.
  • Bonelord's Crown sometimes can't steal attributes from certain heroes (which heroes are immune is not the same each game and sometimes can even change during one game)
    Bane seems to be immune quite often, as far as I noticed in my games; it's not related to items, because it can even happen when he doesn't have any
  • as I mentioned in chat last week, bots seem to be able to "save" the instant respawn from font battles they survive and use it the next time they die after the battle ends (which might already be during the next font battle); I don't know if they can even stack several instant respawns this way
AI observations:
  • the AI sometimes builds or rebuilds command towers next to empty outpost foundations
  • in capture mode, the AI tends to not capture the base in the back (on each side) on kedge's right lane
  • the AI needs level 20 heroes to build command towers even in capture mode (for human players, the level requirement is removed)
Other observations:
  • pandaren fireknight's AA range seems too high for a melee hero (probably 600)
  • arboreal crusader's skill selection tooltip for force of nature describes it as a flesh eating cloud
And now, as a crowning moment of AI fail, a replay of a game on Kedge's Landing where the AI breaks completely:
The AI starts with upgrading the right front base to level 3 and continuously golem pushing the right lane, killing two of our spawns very quickly. But after about 15-25 minutes, one after another, the bots start blindly rushing north along the left border of the map, simply running into our base where they typically run out of health and die while trying to return home. Along the way, they ignore attacks against them as well as moontear spawns (they don't even merc the right lane any more). After they die, they just repeat that cycle for the rest of the game.
Only once we start farming them inside their main base do they start buying any items at all although the red army player had 20000 gold all along.
At about 1:01:20, Bane buys twice as many items as he can carry and half of them drop on the ground.

I forgot to use -debug in that game, but when I observed this in a later game, -debug showed something like "Objective=Takedown, Action=Retreat" (running into our base is considered retreating?).
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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#16 Post by DarnYak »

Random note since you guys wanted an older version:

If you find the version where the AI was difficult (and it's still difficult - not just we adapted to it), I can go back and compare the changes and see if I can fix it any.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#17 Post by watermelon »

Immortal's Breath doesn't dispel wounds.
I feel that red AI ally insanes don't buy items as well as blue does. Played a game where red AI insanes didn't seem to buy anything while in another game, my blue AI allies purchased things normally.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#18 Post by DarnYak »

Is it a specific map? Shop location might be slightly too far or something.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#19 Post by watermelon »

Kedge.

I have a feeling Immortal Breath's cooldown hasn't been updated for skillset cycling since it doesn't get swapped after the correct cooldown. (It does eventually)

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#20 Post by Crazyedd »

Was playing Kedge's as Scyra (the naga witch), with Inf and Defiler on my team, against FM, Beetle, and Soul stealer (forgot his name), all were insane level AI.
I was noticing that, even though my team were insane AI, they didn't buy any items at all.
I was on the south team
Was pretty annoying, considering they were actually doing stuff.

Noticed, Defiler doesn't use his ulti.
Gluttony doesn't use his ulti aswell.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#21 Post by Crazyedd »

So, I joined the blue team (north) on Kedge's landing with all insane AI on either team, and the red team AI still had no items.

I think there must be something wrong with the red team insane AI on Kedge's landing.


I just had a game with normal AI and some bought items and others didn't...
I'm thinking this may be specifically related to certain heroes.

So far, what I've seen whilst on Kedge's:
FM (Insane, Blue Team, Bought)
RK (Insane, Red Team (I think), Didn't Buy)
RK (Normal, Blue Team, Didn't)
AR (Normal, Red Team, Didn't)
Tact (Normal, Red Team, Didn't)
Paladin (Normal, Blue Team, Bought)
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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#22 Post by DarnYak »

Yea, it looks like it was just SLIGHTLY out of the normal detection range, and they rarely walk into its range to trigger shopping.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#23 Post by Executor »

I mentioned something similar happening in the last version but was on Stormwail Peak.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#24 Post by DarnYak »

Yea, I checked all the shops and Blue's shop on Stormwail also seemed SLIGHTLY too far. The AI probably goes near it often enough anyway (unlike Kedge), but I moved it closer to make it more guaranteed.

Also Red's shop on Kedge definitely works as is, it just takes a bit of luck for them to walk in range of it.

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Re: EotA: Twilight 1.14f11 Download

#25 Post by DarnYak »

Note: Murloc & Gluttony have some balance tweaks not mentioned in the wiki since they're new heroes and there's been no official release.

I'm also holding off on messing with Miasma till I've seen more of its fixed version to really judge its balance. All other things have been addressed in some form (sufficient or not I'm not yet sure).
•Bonelord's Crown sometimes can't steal attributes from certain heroes (which heroes are immune is not the same each game and sometimes can even change during one game)
Bane seems to be immune quite often, as far as I noticed in my games; it's not related to items, because it can even happen when he doesn't have any
Does this mean there's no attribute gain/loss, or a hero just doesn't loose any stats but you still gain them? Similarly, does it work on other heroes around the same time?
And now, as a crowning moment of AI fail, a replay of a game on Kedge's Landing where the AI breaks completely:
Looks like they were trying to take out the cannon tower as if it were some more sneaky attack on a base. Not quite sure how to best fix this fairly rare situation. It might even be the only possible location where this happens.
Edit: #1 I put in a workaround for this specific situation, #2 After wondering why they weren't teleporting I found a fairly nasty bug with this as well as defending obelisks that may have been leading to constant suicides if they die doing these things

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