Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

An Aeon of Strife map for Warcraft 3
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PostPosted: January 20th, 2013, 3:15 pm 
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Main changes were fixes to the AI done last revision. As in almost completely redoing the obelisk defense code to make it not be so suicidal. Also the AI will take over outposts now. Plus I did neph simple balance changes.

There's still things I could do, but I think its at the point that this is going to be a canidate for a final release, unless there's bugs or major problems with the AI. After a week or two if nothing is reported I'll rename this to 1.15, re-release it, and release the open map and consider it done.

DarnYak


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PostPosted: January 20th, 2013, 10:08 pm 
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Some things to look at:
AI going to the other side on mid lane of Storm to put Obs.
AC loving to teleport rather than actually fighting.
Leaver AI not casting spells? (Definitely for AA except for her innate.)
The level 2+ of Fire Panda's ult feel very strong.

Have you considered that Neph's retaliate could result in quickly killing off Scarab (or possibly himself) if Scarab's ult is active?


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PostPosted: January 20th, 2013, 10:12 pm 
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AI going to the other side on mid lane of Storm to put Obs.

Feature!
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Leaver AI not casting spells? (Definitely for AA except for her innate.)

Looked at it, the owls were definitely being run so it makes no sense to me at all. People said IS cast spells after i left too. Could use more testing.
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Have you considered that Neph's retaliate could result in quickly killing off Scarab (or possibly himself) if Scarab's ult is active?

You mean after it happened to me? ;P

Actually one of the last big changes that's probably needed is better defense / reclaiming the two non-lane obelisks. Right now taking them is basicaly a cheesey way to win since they don't fully use them (better then before, but still...).

DarnYak


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PostPosted: January 20th, 2013, 10:57 pm 
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reclaiming the two non-lane obelisks.

I sometimes see their creeps attacking Ob towers; is this probably just the result of command towers?
Besides that, you should probably fix them teleporting frequently since today's AI insane game felt easier than the other insane AI games we've played before (where we actually resorted to backdooring or taking the artifact to win).

You should have AI prioritize Gluttony's Feast.

I definitely appreciate the changes to Neph. I'm still a bit sad that he's pretty weak in the beginning (shallow mana pool + weak return on Lifetap with low health) which is partially solved by getting the bonus feat, but I was still able to steamroll the other AI team (Scarab, FM, and CS) on Kedge without returning to the main base. I like how all of his ranged spells are much better than his melee skills except for Retaliate.
Fire Trees still doesn't work all the time, maybe due to the visibility issue though sometimes I'm pretty sure the trees are visible.
Scintillate's damage buff displays Level 1 at level 2+; the immolation effect isn't properly being leveled when given to the target unit.

You might want AI Scarab to take Smite earlier so he isn't so much of a sitting duck. Smite seems to be pretty strong due to how spammable it is.

EDIT
I saw the AI jittering weirdly (moving erratically and instantly to a position that was very close to them), without any items. Another feature I guess? The replay describes this better than me (look at Scarab).
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You should probably change how badly BP is against Neph's Retailate/modify Retaliate so it doesn't rape DPS heroes.
I almost never use False Alliance though that might change if I played against real people.


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PostPosted: January 21st, 2013, 12:37 am 
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I sometimes see their creeps attacking Ob towers; is this probably just the result of command towers?

Yea, either command towers or they followed a hero there.
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Besides that, you should probably fix them teleporting frequently since today's AI insane game felt easier than the other insane AI games we've played before

I'm not 100% sure tha'ts the cause but I know what you mean. Today's game was a bad example since the AI is just not great with squisher heroes anyway.
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I saw the AI jittering weirdly (moving erratically and instantly to a position that was very close to them), without any items. Another feature I guess

I'll check the replay later but i'm guessing its the anti-stuck code I added. It needs some work apparently.
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You should probably change how badly BP is against Neph's Retailate/modify Retaliate so it doesn't rape DPS heroes.

I can and will change retaliate now to ignore most magic attacks. Old bug with newer easy fix.
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I like how all of his ranged spells are much better than his melee skills

Is that a sarcastic like? I can take a look at buffing his melee, it probably needs it.

DarnYak


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PostPosted: January 21st, 2013, 9:26 am 
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Is that a sarcastic like? I can take a look at buffing his melee, it probably needs it.

No, not really since I end up using most of his ranged spells more. I'm definitely biased against his melee skills since I focus on Blood and Shadow more.

A relative rank for the skills I'm thinking about: Duskslash > Shred > Scorch > Vampiric Bite, Blastwave >> Swipe, and Retaliate > Shadowveil > Close Wounds > Adrenaline > Black Globe > Spellbind > Scintillate > Plunder > Distract > Evasion.
Shred is above Scorch because of its skill placement and since it helps more with killing enemies and still hurts even at Level 1.
Swipe contradicts its use as AoE damage (being awkward to aim and having a rather small AoE) and offers nothing outside of damage. Both skills are rather lackluster in actually doing AoE damage but Blastwave has a nice slow and hits buildings for fun.
Melee does excel in terms of buffs. Retaliate is awesome for skill cycling though I'll be a bit sad now that I can't instant kill BP. Adrenaline would have been higher if it wasn't in an awkward position (in Blood, right before the valuable Lifetap and Close Wounds and near Pain's cooldown). Plunder might have been higher than Scintillate if it could dispel more stuff (a lot of buffs don't seem to have buffs anymore). Evasion is vastly outclassed by the two other buffs on the same skill cycle along with Shadowveil showing up a little later.

The mana cost scaling for the damaging melee skills does seem rather high (Level 1 mana cost isn't as bad).


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PostPosted: January 21st, 2013, 4:08 pm 
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The fatal error when playing eidolon still exists in 1.14f10. For the tests, I didnt't use other skills except casting the ultimate (see below) once in one game at an empty location, so the eidolon's other skills are most likely not responsible. Interestingly, I was able to reproduce it several times on Kedge's Landing (I tested on the right lane, in case that matters), but never on Stormwail Peak. Haven't tested the other battlefields yet.
It seems that the "Venomous Bites" talent is necessary for the error to occur, but even with the talent, the crash doesn't happen immediately. I'm just guessing here, but the problem might be that infested locusts attack heroes under certain conditions (they normally ignore heroes even when no other targets are present, so I don't think they're supposed to attack them) because whenever it crashed, there were enemy heroes in range of the stumps.

Other bugs:
  • The "Prolonged Decay" talent for eidolon's ultimate doesn't work.
  • No matter what the argument value is, the "spawnrate" command causes units to be spawned continuously by all outposts, up to the spawncap. Every unit that dies is replaced almost immediately, causing pretty much neverending battles.
  • In order for perks and, in the cases of Stormwail Peak and Gloomreap Mire, energy to be given to a player, that player must still be able to receive a skill point. So when playing in "fullskills" mode and being at least level 28 or when a player has bought enough additional skill points at the altar to have 28 skill points already, they can no longer receive additional energy or perks from leveling up.

Other observations:
  • Felskin Gauntlets' tooltip still claims the cooldown is 3 minutes, but it was reduced to 45 seconds.
  • The tips section at the start of the game still claims that obelisk control provides generator energy. It also claims that leavers that have been taken over by the AI will pool resources to human players. I'm not sure if this is still true.

The following bugs and AI observations are from version 1.14f9, but are probably still true:
  • When forlorn martyr uses streak while being chained to an anchor and the anchor starts pulling him in while streak is still not completed, the forlorn martyr will be locked in place because streak and the anchor's pull cancel each other's movement out, so neither of the two effects ever ends. The hero cannot attack or move, nor use any skills or items. He can just wait until he dies. "Summon hero" at the altar might work, but an anchored hero is usually under attack, so the teleport is interrupted. I don't know if another hero destroying the anchor would free him, but it might work.
    I also don't know if other movement skills (like charge or dash) are also affected by this problem.
  • Sometimes, the forlorn martyr's streak can take him outside of the currently active battlefield. I don't know the exact cause, but it may have to do with knockback effects like zen shot. As a workaround, "summon hero" can be used to get him back into the game because there is nothing out there that could attack him.
  • Streak can only stun enemies that are visible to the forlorn martyr at the beginning of the streak. This can be observed easily when streaking across trees or other line-of-sight breakers, e.g. while chasing a fleeing hero.

AI obervations:
  • Font heroes don't seem to ever buy items.
  • When having to retreat, font heroes on the blue team sometimes retreat straight into the red towers, as if they didn't know which team they're on. The same might occur for red heroes as well, but I haven't observed it yet. It may have to do with font heroes being able to switch teams depending on the outcome of font battles.
  • Font heroes do not actively take part in font battles. They fight if they happen to be present, but they do not intentionally move to font battles. They probably don't have the code for font battle participation. This may or may not be intentional.
  • When an AI hero builds a command tower inside a defense generator's aura, the tower reaches full hit points long before the build time is over, and then the AI cancels it before it is finished. A while later, the AI tries building it again, and everything repeats. The same problem does not occur with other buildings because they have more hit points and less build time.


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PostPosted: January 21st, 2013, 7:09 pm 
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No, not really since I end up using most of his ranged spells more. I'm definitely biased against his melee skills since I focus on Blood and Shadow more.

Well it's not exactly great since ranged skills are easier to use and have less risk, so I definitely need to either buff his melee or nerf his ranged.

Quote:
It seems that the "Venomous Bites" talent is necessary for the error to occur, but even with the talent, the crash doesn't happen immediately. I'm just guessing here, but the problem might be that infested locusts attack heroes under certain conditions (they normally ignore heroes even when no other targets are present, so I don't think they're supposed to attack them) because whenever it crashed, there were enemy heroes in range of the stumps.

This should be easy to test then, just start a game against no heroes and see if it crashes.

Quote:
•Font heroes don't seem to ever buy items.
•Font heroes do not actively take part in font battles. They fight if they happen to be present, but they do not intentionally move to font battles. They probably don't have the code for font battle participation. This may or may not be intentional.

Both intended, Font heroes aren't suppose to be full strength heroes, closer to super spawns that come back to life.

It looks like you guys have sufficient bugs/changes to warrant f11. Damn you. See you Sunday!

DarnYak


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PostPosted: January 21st, 2013, 8:12 pm 
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Well it's not exactly great since ranged skills are easier to use and have less risk, so I definitely need to either buff his melee or nerf his ranged.

Obviously the former since only like two people use him.

I forgot to mention; in that last insane AI game, the AI kept trying to build command towers and other stuff near the empty top outpost.


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PostPosted: January 21st, 2013, 11:13 pm 
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watermelon wrote:
I forgot to mention; in that last insane AI game, the AI kept trying to build command towers and other stuff near the empty top outpost.

Yea I need to double check that or if that's wc3's ai doing it. A lot of the redundant building is just the ai trying to rebuild stuff that dies or wasn't finished or whatnot, it's nothing I've done and idk how to stop it.


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2013, 12:41 am 
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I just played (and gave up on) an annoying game where my AI allies kept constantly teleporting to the top Ob tower to "defend it" probably because it was so close to the enemy units passing by the top lane. The AI also seemed more suicidal.


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2013, 2:24 am 
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That's what you deserve for cheesing the top ob (again) ;P And blue took over bottom base, awesome!

Other bugs
- Mysterious stopped units (doesn't seem to be polymorph)
- AI building towers and such while the base is occupied by enemies forces
- Needs proper dealing with building stuff near its base
- Ice lance debug message needs to be removed
- Item purchasing seems really rare now

Edit: Leaving AI being broken might not be a failure to cast spells, but a failure to level up spells

DarnYak


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2013, 11:31 pm 
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Here's a replay showing how scary IS can be with evocation items:
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I think the AI shouldn't focus on Tree's trees when there are enemy heroes about. (Inf kept doing that, maybe she really hates them?)
The AI still can get stuck sometimes during Font battle as DW was just hanging near the fountain at the Tides.


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PostPosted: January 24th, 2013, 12:17 am 
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Haven't played in some time, but I noticed that I can no longer play with all insane computers (both teams) and expect to have a chance of winning. The computers on my team won't buy any items or put up any real challenge to the enemy team. Is there some mechanic that is causing me to do less damage to insane computers compared to human players? Do I take increased damage from insane computers? How do insane computers differ from normal computers?


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PostPosted: January 24th, 2013, 11:19 pm 
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Insane AI's only cheat bonuses are addtional experience and buying items at a very reduced price. Obviously they do some things differently then normal or easy (building command towers and such), but no direct damage bonuses etc.

DarnYak


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PostPosted: January 25th, 2013, 7:38 pm 
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So Insane computers don't really work if they are on a team with a human player? I'll put normal computers on my team instead.


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PostPosted: January 25th, 2013, 9:38 pm 
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They get the same bonuses they just don't do certain actions that are reserved for players (building stuff, mostly).

DarnYak


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PostPosted: January 25th, 2013, 10:35 pm 
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Not sure if this is already known, but Behemoth's Miasma is broken. The flies never go away and kill enemies quickly.


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PostPosted: January 27th, 2013, 2:51 am 
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Oops, my fix to flies actually made them even more broken (it lost track of the corpses that were contributing to flies number/damage/duration and so was basicaly an infinate death machine).

Quote:
I think the AI shouldn't focus on Tree's trees when there are enemy heroes about. (Inf kept doing that, maybe she really hates them?)

Taunting Treants don't have any target priority.

Quote:
The fatal error when playing eidolon still exists in 1.14f10. For the tests, I didnt't use other skills except casting the ultimate (see below) once in one game at an empty location, so the eidolon's other skills are most likely not responsible. Interestingly, I was able to reproduce it several times on Kedge's Landing (I tested on the right lane, in case that matters), but never on Stormwail Peak. Haven't tested the other battlefields yet.
It seems that the "Venomous Bites" talent is necessary for the error to occur, but even with the talent, the crash doesn't happen immediately. I'm just guessing here, but the problem might be that infested locusts attack heroes under certain conditions (they normally ignore heroes even when no other targets are present, so I don't think they're supposed to attack them) because whenever it crashed, there were enemy heroes in range of the stumps.

After digging around a bit with this I'm still stumped. The flies don't have the ability to attack heroes, so heroes being involved should be irrelevant outside of the AI killing them. One possibility I need tested is if they might be going off the map edge - I think there used ot be crashes involved with that, and not sure blizz ever fixed them all. This should be equally prevelent on candleburg, and with more trees closer to the edge. Alternately, it could just be the slow poison ability, but that seems highly unlikely since it's not an aura and its a pretty commonly used ability.

DarnYak


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PostPosted: January 27th, 2013, 12:13 pm 
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DarnYak wrote:
After digging around a bit with this I'm still stumped. The flies don't have the ability to attack heroes, so heroes being involved should be irrelevant outside of the AI killing them. One possibility I need tested is if they might be going off the map edge - I think there used ot be crashes involved with that, and not sure blizz ever fixed them all. This should be equally prevelent on candleburg, and with more trees closer to the edge. Alternately, it could just be the slow poison ability, but that seems highly unlikely since it's not an aura and its a pretty commonly used ability.


I was able to reproduce a crash on Kedge's Landing without using the Venomous Bites talent, so that isn't the reason. Any suspicions that it has to do with other players or the AI are also cleared because I was alone in that game. The idea that the flies might go off the map is interesting considering that the longer the game went on, the farther away from the stumps I saw them flying around. Maybe whenever they take off from the stump, they first return to were they were before and start looking for targets from there. Or is their flight radius linked to an attribute?

I'll do some more testing on that one. It might be the last source of fatal errors left in eota.

On a side note, I noticed that infested stumps have no vision range. They cant' even see themselves, so you can only select them to see how much mana they contain if something else gives you vision of them. I'm not sure if this is intentional.


Other things I noticed in other games:

  • When the icespinner creates mirror images while carrying a moontear, they don't have the moontear effect on them, immediately giving away which one is real.
  • When a hero dies near an enemy outpost, the outpost fountain remains inactive until that hero respawns.

And again, AI observations:

  • Even when the icespinner doesn't have a moontear, enemy AI players seem to usually guess correctly which of the 5 icespinners is the real one. I suspect them of cheating to know which one to nuke.
  • I saw AI time cleric buy items for one of her forks (it wasn't the first one, but it was only one of them; but that might just have to do with the length of the game or with the strange way how the AI decides whether to buy any items at all). Forks don't copy the original time cleric's equipment, and human players can't really manage their equipment because they can't select the forks. What happens to those items if the fork dies? Is it intentional to make AI time cleric even stronger (considering she's very strong already because her forks don't degenerate health and don't lose mana due to swapping)?
  • I noticed that when the AI swashbuckler has dash and tries to retreat, he stops running, starts the teleport to his main base, and then uses dash, which moves him just far enough to cancel the teleport. Then, he repeats the cycle, wasting time and wasting money on each canceled teleport (if the AI has to pay for it?), until he either reaches his base without teleporting or runs out of mana so he can finally finish a teleportation attempt.
  • In my test games against AI teams, the enemies only build defensive towers if there's an AI hero on MY team as well. Edit: that AI hero was actually only needed to feed the crystal required.
  • The AI seems to never play nephalem or dread shaman.
  • The AI dwarven blackguard cannot buy items for his fiend although players can, and those items persist if the fiend dies and is resummoned.
  • The AI crest witch doesn't seem to be able to turn and follow her target while using her ultimate. I occasionally do see her turn, but the direction doesn't seem intentionally chosen.

And coming soon™ (as in Blizzard's "soon", so I'll post it "when it's done"):
  • list of "physical" skills that cannot damage non-ethereal spell immune targets
  • list of "physical" skills usable while being ethereal
  • list of "physical" skills usable (but without any effect) on ethereal targets
  • list of "magical" skills (like "evocation", "enchantment" etc.) that have an effect on (but don't damage) spell immune targets

PS: I read something about a "zombie apocalypse" game mode being in the game, but I only read how to access it via host bot. Is it possible to activate it in other games as well, maybe with a chat command during hero selection?


Last edited by Scheba on February 10th, 2013, 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: January 27th, 2013, 3:04 pm 
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Quote:
Or is their flight radius linked to an attribute?

Yup, as is the number of them so the likelihood of them going off the map goes up as the game goes on.
Quote:
On a side note, I noticed that infested stumps have no vision range. They cant' even see themselves, so you can only select them to see how much mana they contain if something else gives you vision of them. I'm not sure if this is intentional.

Trees have no eyes. At least these ones don't.
Quote:
Even when the icespinner doesn't have a moontear, enemy AI players seem to usually guess correctly which of the 5 icespinners is the real one. I suspect them of cheating to know which one to nuke.

Yea they do, there's also a bit of cheating with invisibility. It's one of those things humans can pick out reasonably well but its almost impossible to make the AI emulate, and the AI is already disadvantaged enough as it is.
Quote:
I saw AI time cleric buy items for one of her forks

Yea, bug. Gave me an intersting thought though, I'm not sure what happens if you set shared unit control and allies select the forks.
Quote:
The AI seems to never play nephalem or dread shaman.

Intentional. It's terrible with Neph (a bit too complicated), and the DS can't use his totems (spellbook issue that isn't easily worked around for that particular skill).
Quote:
And coming soon™ (as in Blizzard's "soon", so I'll post it "when it's done"):

Not to rush you, but I'm trying to release the FINAL version so I don't plan on fixing anything that's non-critical after that comes out. I keep hoping its this week but I didn't finish the issues mentioned here.

Quote:
PS: I read something about a "zombie apocalypse" game mode being in the game, but I only read how to access it via host bot. Is it possible to activate it in other games as well, maybe with a chat command during hero selection?

It's severely broken and I couldn't get it working properly, I should delete references to it in the version notes. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist.

DarnYak


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PostPosted: January 28th, 2013, 10:38 am 
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The instant revival for AI heroes in VF still exists. I'm pretty sure it occurs when AI heroes fight in the font battles and survive, then get killed outside of a font battle and instantly revive.


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PostPosted: January 31st, 2013, 10:40 am 
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Isn't it possible to just make the flies expire after a given period of time? No matter if they are still killing units. Or perhaps limit the amount that can be spawned in certain area?


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PostPosted: January 31st, 2013, 1:27 pm 
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Yea its a bug introduced this version. Already fixed for next release.

DarnYak


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PostPosted: January 31st, 2013, 11:12 pm 
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I noticed that Storm Hammer +4 to +5 upgrade costs 3160 gold, which is higher than it used to be many versions ago. It is a 385 gold increase from the spreadsheet I have for EotA Items.


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