Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

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 Post subject: AI Discussion
PostPosted: February 27th, 2012, 12:13 pm 
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Alright, now that a massive bug was fixed which explains a lot of "the ai won't use x skill" stuff, this is probably a good time to start this thread.

As I see it, there's a few categories of AI issues, in decending order of importance:

- Bugs: Just general clearly unintended issues like heroes getting stuck
- Spell use: Either poor spell use or complete failure to use. The AI intentionaly doesn't learn certain skills that are more complicated to properly use, but that's still a minor issue if a player leaves the game who had them.
- General behavior: Things the AI should be doing or should not be doing. Some of this is very spell specific (ie, don't stand in Grand Rune), others more general (pick up Moontears)
- Hero specific behavior: A few heroes play completely differently (ie inf) and really can't be effectively used without their own custom tailored AI
- Management: This category is stuff that's mostly or entirely exclusive to fighting against a pure AI team. Stuff like building spawn towers and repairing - its effectively a completely seperate AI required if there aren't any human players

Just so I don't get anyone's hopes up, the AI is not my priority (never has been), but I do find it an entertaining diversion at times. Otoh, EotA2 (whenever it comes into existance) is likely to end up with AI again so planning ahead won't hurt at all. Ideally some ambitious person interested in this topic will make some sort of compilation post sorting out contributions to this thread ;P


 Post subject: Re: AI Discussion
PostPosted: February 27th, 2012, 9:50 pm 
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aka my rambling thread
I'll edit this periodically.
Last edit: 12/29/13

Italicized things that aren't very important to take care of.

Please nerf AI TC Forks.
obnoxious bold because I've been complaining about this

AI heroes that could use work are heroes that don't contribute much to the team.
  • Oracle because of reliance on Purge Malice which makes her pretty easy to PK.
  • Tact for being a sitting duck in lanes and using Flank weirdly (probably Blizzard AI). She could be more offensive in using Blast Arrow and even learn to use Neutralize.
  • Soul Binder has never really been scary and is often an easy target to PK.
  • Inf/Swash/CS as they don't PK that well. At least Inf can somewhat contribute by using mines to stop creep pushes.
  • Lich for not investing in skill points correctly. (probably still trying to level up Remorseless)
  • Storm doesn't seem effective. She generally breaks Tether when against large creep waves by retreating and doesn't use Snowblast that much. The biggest impact she'll probably have on a game is casting her Ult but that's just a nuisance. The "good" thing is that she's not easy to kill with her innate.

Good AI heroes are heroes that don't easily die unless ganged up on.
  • Dwarf - Unwilling Sacrifice and Darkstride make him difficult to take down. His current skillset is probably too hero oriented though.
  • TC - Only because Forks won't expire on their own.

  • AI can revive instantly in VF, probably due to some relation with the font battle death code.
  • I've seen one of the Blue team AI heroes build the Ob tower mid lane on the Red team's side. Might not happen anymore with teleporting fixed. Still does happen.
    AI heroes will mostly build their starting Ob on the other team's side of mid lane rather than their side. In general, pathing on Storm's mid lane can be strange with the AI waltzing through enemy lines to get somewhere.
  • Font heroes don't have the correct behavior of pushing a lane.
  • Red AI will almost never build their starting Ob on bottom because they get distracted by shopping.
  • For "magic heroes," the AI will sometimes buy evocation items even though it won't benefit from it like AM and Oracle.
  • Blue AI in Kedge often go down left instead of defending left base properly
  • Don't allow them to take the energy perk on Candle which is useless.
  • In Draft, one of the AI wasn't chosen and it randomed DS which the AI normally doesn't get.
  • In Kedge, the AI can somehow buy a worker from the enemy's base. Not sure of exact cause.
  • Reek - Inconsistency in casting Anchor.
  • Bane - Inconsistency in casting Impale.
  • Storm - No idea what's wrong with her, but she just does nothing for a while.
  • Tyrant, Inf, Eido, and Oracle can have trouble casting spells when they should be running away.
  • IS and Defiler will interrupt scroll teleport for no apparent reason.
  • Storm on Red/Blue can't use her ult.

Spell Use:
  • Aero - Make her cast Maelstrom
  • Soul Binder - Can waste Mend, probably because of base ability.
  • Scarab - Replace Life Wave base ability so he doesn't cast it against enemy waves.
  • Defiler - Exhaustion doesn't always seem to be casted. Heal and Scroll Teleport (from Insane) can get prematurely interrupted. Cloud may not always be casted.
  • Gravel - Shouldn't waste Rockslide on enemy flying heroes.
  • Murloc - Should change direction of her ult when targets move.
  • Tyrant - Use his Innate to escape (like Oracle using Zen Shot) or to get rid of a large spawn wave while sieging.
  • SM - Make her cast Soulmate on allies.
  • Dwarf - Invest in Shadowclap and Doom Hammer with one point in Shadowstride and Unwilling Sacrifice.
  • Lich - Invest in Gravebind and Dark Altar correctly.

General Behavior:
  • Make heroes that go near Tact's banner automatically power up the banner (probably better on a full AI team).

Hero Specific Behavior:
  • Make IS always split webs with an ally such that he still has one web in his inventory.
  • SB use Decoy more wisely rather than casting it and then breaking it by casting another spell. Could have a more unique AI that makes him actually use innate to gain mana.

  • Repair towers that are outside of bases like Ob towers.
  • Specifically on Storm, they could be more aggressive at retaking Top/Bottom Ob if it gets destroyed and their respective base is still intact. This is a pretty abusable point at disadvantaging the AI since they won't make any attempts if their Ob gets destroyed but the enemy team does not try to rebuild the Ob and only leaves some units behind.
  • Capture Mode: (Do this if you're completely bored)
    - Make AI capture outposts.
    - Make AI heroes bunch up together to attempt to take outposts.

No evidence of talent usage:

    Ugly code tag to act as a spoiler tag.
    [*]RK will try casting his ult but interrupt it.
    [*][s]In a Verdant Falls game, 3 of my red team AI allies were stuck patrolling the right lane (Plight, SB, Rue). It looks like it happened due to the Blue team losing the first base on the right or as a result of spawns not going in that lane anymore (probably reached the spawn limit). They only became unstuck when the 2nd right base got destroyed.
    This didn't happen for the stalker AI (AC).[/s] (This doesn't seem to happen anymore)
    AI seems to have trouble following lanes in VF with their creeps. Sometimes, they end up fighting creeps by themselves.
    [*][s]Inf often gets stuck in some places. This commonly occurs on top lane for Storm (red team side). She gets stuck near the waterfall area.[/s]
    Overall, Inf's AI needs to be updated.
    [*]Reek can get stuck doing nothing.
    [*]AI heroes tend to hang around invisible things like Inf's mines or Inf herself, probably because they're trying to attack it but can't because they're invisible.
    [*]Blue AI heroes tend to suicide early in the game on Red's top tower lane in Gloom.
    [*]Reek often gets stuck sometimes not doing anything. It looks like it happens when he's under pressure from damage. [b]He sometimes Noms forever as well.[/b] His AI just seems inconsistent: I've seen him casting Anchor normally in one game and then never cast it in another game.
    [*][mostly done] AI will sometimes try to build multiple Ob towers at the same spot. Happens mostly at Inn and Rock lane.
    [*]Excluding Stormwail, Red Team AI heroes bunch up in one lane at the beginning of the game. They eventually separate later.
    [*][mostly done] The supporting/stalker heroes are extremely terrible at running away and often get themselves killed trying to follow you. I've seen AC just stand there with red life still trying to attack.
    [*]Fix tavern hero AI -> Hiring Blackguard from the tavern makes him have an AI that doesn't work.
    [*][Neph never returned] [i]Neph - I've seen him freeze sometimes after using a spell. It's not very consistent but it looks like it mostly happens after Blastwave or Execute. He usually becomes normal after casting his mana regen spell.[/i]
    [*]TC's AI needs to be updated. (Yes, she performs pretty badly to be considered a bug)
    [*]{More of an AI quirk} When the AI is being chased by an enemy, they will often try to teleport if they have no enemy in their sight for a while, which often allows the enemy to catch up. Easily abused if using a hero with invisibility.
    [*]In general, I've seen heroes that should run away (low life/by themselves with a relatively low level) just charge further into enemy lines before deciding that they shouldn't try to kill themselves. Happens a lot on Kedge when the AI haven't reached level 6 yet.[/list]

    Spell Use:[list]
    [*]Inf - [i]Shouldn't try casting Blitz and stalking an enemy hero if she doesn't have enough mana to cast AoO OR break Blitz and attack the enemy if she doesn't have mana to cast AoO.
    Rather pointless to Smoke Cloud town halls.[/i]
    AKA update her AI
    [*]BP - Spam Active Innate on enemy heroes and Hammer.
    [*]Aero - [s]Ult could be used more intelligently like if only enemy heroes are present and not some spawns. (Eh I guess you can only go so far with it)[/s] Have her learn and use Tempest again instead of Maelstrom.
    [*]AA - Make her always have at least one owl near her[i] and then spam owls at every enemy base/stalker owls on enemy/allied heroes[/i].
    [*]TC - Cast her innate to disable enemy heroes.
    [*]DW -  Use Displacement Field. Cast Ult more intelligently. He sometimes casts it at full health if he gets damaged and is close to the enemy hero (Simple base ability change should suffice).
    [*]Swashy - Use Dash to catch escaping heroes or to run away.
    [*]AC - Spam Sentinel with every tree she sees. [DEPRECATED][s]Ult could be used more intelligently (Ex: Cast when at least two enemy heroes present or large creep wave with magic units). The base ability for her heal should be changed since she tends to cast it on allies when they get damaged, even if they're close to full health.
    [*][DS vanished into the void][s]DS - Mass Healing could be used more intelligently, like using it on wounded allies.[/s] Totems and Ult could be used.
    [*]Tree - Use Innate when his life is low.
    [*]Bane - Use Caustic Breath against heroes more offensively. Could learn to use  Acid Sheath [s]or Charge[/s].
    [*]IS -  He doesn't cast Brain Freeze like he used to. He only seems to cast Blizzard if "fullskills" is turned on.
    Could learn to use Webs (casts the ability, but I haven't seen him actually use the item).
    [*]Scarab - Allow him to invest in Lifewave because he uses it pretty well in "fullskills."
    [*]Oracle - Learn Zen Archery now that it's a passive instead of Nemesis. Use her innate.
    [*]Defiler - Make him use DP. Would be nice to see his Ult casted. Make him use his heal.
    [*]Lich - Use his ult.
    [*]Ember - Use his Ult while sieging.
    [*]Ascendant - Cast his innate like Tree's AI for treants.
    [*]Martyr - Use his innate to heal if fully charged.
    Learn to use Ion Surge again.
    [*][DEPRECATED (doesn't use as often now)]Tyrant -  Shouldn't waste his ice wave spell on enemy flying heroes.
    [*]CS - Use Crash to catch up to enemies or escape. [DEPRECATED]Use ult.
    [*]Blackguard - Use his invis to escape when his life is low (Blizzard AI might automatically make him cast it if he has at least one skillpoint). Use the Sacrifice spell on his Skeleton when needed.[/list]
    General Behavior:[list]
    [*]The AI doesn't act really logical when trying to escape and entering a danger spot (like Pyroclasm). They should probably just prioritize running away.
    [*]Don't charge in recklessly and ignorantly to get the moontear at Kedge.
    [*]Counter Mind Fog since the AI acts silly in it.
    [*]Run to Font battles and fight to death.
    [*]Upgrade selected talents.
    [*][s]Prioritize heroes carrying moon tears like by having enemies target that hero while allies guard the hero carrying it.[/s]
    Have smarter behavior while carrying moon tears.
    [*][i]Prioritize Interrupting channeling spells, particularly Ults.[/i][/list]
    Hero Specific Behavior:[list]
    [*]BP - When sieging, make him attack every tower at least once so they'll have the debuff from the innate.
    [*][s]TC switch between her Forks to reset degeneration.[/s]
    Actually, you could just disable Fork's degeneration for AI TC.
    [*][DEPRECATED] Allow Inf to share control with any human players so that they can detonate her mines.
    [*]Inf - [i]Could act smarter when she is visible to the enemy like by Shadowsight or by stalker owls.[/i][/list]
    [*]Make AI heroes try to take over top or bottom Obs when they're sufficiently leveled. They could resort to doing this when they have a clear advantage/disadvantage.
    [*]Hiring Merc waves to defend
    [*]Repairing towers when base is not being attacked.
    [*]Use spawn upgrades (Race-dependent).
    [*]Hire Digmasters.
    [*]Build Ob towers.
    [*]Build spawn towers.
    [*]Make workers only retreat from enemy units that can actually attack them. (In other words, don't retreat from other workers or Owl Scouts).
    [*][i]Hiring Merc waves to attempt a siege[/i].
    [*][i]Choose specific heroes to build a team, like one healer, two AoE, and two tanks[/i]
    [*]{Not a great idea}[i]Hire tavern heroes if they have a ton of gold[/i][/list]

    Confirmed Talents used:
      RK - Long Hazard Slash
      AA - Fiery Meteor Swarm
      TC - Phase Stun
      Fenris - Lunge Stun
      IS - Spider Offspring
      AC - Heal me too
      Rue - Guard Protection
      Defiler - Trap Corpse, Blight Mana
      Ember - Mana Drain Slag Spray
      Garg - Detective Small Gargs
      Eido - Poisonous Stump, Repetitive Entangle
      Dwarf - Skeletal Swarm, Armor Reduce
      Oracle - Ki Strike

    Last edited by watermelon on May 30th, 2013, 9:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

     Post subject: Re: AI Discussion
    PostPosted: February 10th, 2013, 11:12 pm 
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    Hey water if you get bored one last big improvement I could make would be to improve their shopping lists. If you feel like posting some ideal setups I can throw it in relatively easily.


     Post subject: Re: AI Discussion
    PostPosted: February 11th, 2013, 12:34 am 
    Yak's Secretary
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    You're pretty much asking for a list of items that are annoying right? =P
    Angelstone deserves particular mention since that's pretty much the only item the AI actually uses and benefits well. At the very least, all squishy heroes should favor this over Mindgem, whose sleep is thrown out randomly.
    The only other orb worth using for the AI would be making hero killers know how to use Root Orb.
    After orbs, helms are worth getting. Dragon/Plate for squishies/tanks and Agi&Str/executioner for others. Circlet shouldn't be favored as the AI doesn't fully take advantage.
    Gloves should be prioritized last, and really should only be favored by some of the evocation heroes for Evoc gloves or Agi heroes for the Agi gloves.

    Some more specifics
    For the two flyers, I like Mana Ward.
    CS: I usually go for only one item that increases two of his stats to abuse his innate, though I don't know if this would be effective for the AI. Generally, I would go for Glacial Wall or Root Orb. The other items would just be increasing his attack and other random stuff.
    Auto Attackers (Tact, Rue, Panda to an extent): Obviously items that boost attack. Executioner Hood is nice but Plate Helm that drains stats makes their attack scarier.
    The most annoying AI fatty would have evasion hax (Temporal Buckler), Angelstone, [Knight's Armor/Hydra Mail, and Dragonhelm (40%)] or [Resist Robe and Plate Helm] and that may increase the fatty's chance of not dying so quickly.

    Anything about getting the perks that are worth it? =P

     Post subject: Re: AI Discussion
    PostPosted: February 14th, 2013, 3:53 am 
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    I notice you left offhands out of your main list except in passing. Intentional? No rings either, not sure how you'd rate those compared to gloves (being last).

    I'm probably going to add some ai improvements to make usable items a bit more intelligent (almost entirely due to IS's webs), so I can go ahead and add some item specific logic code (including consumables).


     Post subject: Re: AI Discussion
    PostPosted: February 14th, 2013, 9:45 am 
    Yak's Secretary
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    I notice you left offhands out of your main list except in passing. Intentional?

    Nah, I was running out of time and forgot to come back to this.

    These items would be worth getting after helms.
    Offhands: Most heroes would benefit from Glacial Wall's stat bonus + passive as an Int bonus always leads to more mana. Str heroes can also choose to prioritize that Str buckler as not many items give a good Str bonus (active is nice too if you made them smart in using it). Because of the two items, I normally wouldn't get the others except Mana Ward as a possible substitute for the flyers (mainly just Harpy) and Temporal Buckler for Inf in hit and runs (maybe code to use after an AoO doesn't do much damage or a failed gank).
    Armors: Mostly is a logical choice: Sorceror for casters, Leather for PKers/auto attackers, Knight/Resist/Hydra for fatties.
    Garg is an exception as I would mostly get Leather Armor so that it would have a better chance in killing off creeps in using Stonegaze or in dealing more % damage to heroes, though he still benefits from the fatty items.

    Rings are almost never prioritized by me now when there's 5 different item types that offer more variety and create well-rounded heroes while not draining so much gold. Yeah, I would even favor gloves over them. The 6th item I would mostly use is a consumable, but if I somehow got 6 items, I guess I would be swimming in gold and could afford to use rings.
    Definitely make heroes get rings last. I would say that the Int rings are okay for the casters (Defiler and Lich come to mind) and Str rings for the fatties (Gravel, Garg). Siegers could favor Warrior rings for the damage bonus. Agi rings only if nothing else really makes sense though Warrior ring could be a suitable replacement.

    I didn't mention the consumables but the support heroes could resort to using them instead of any other items (Heal Pot, Clarity, Nets) and pool their gold to the rest of the team.

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